To think the pope has a point??

[HiggleDyPigGeldy]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65572153

I was in Italy recently and visited several large towns in the North. More dogs being walked than babies in buggies.

As I said, population of the world is not an issue, plenty of babies being born in the likes of Niger, the Congo, Gambia, Iraq. Angela Merkel let 1m Syrians in for this very reason.

I'm willing to bet the Pope wouldn't like this as a solution though as they woundn't be Catholic and it's all about keeping the membership (read money) up.

No surprise though that the countries where lots of babies are being burn treat women as second class citizens and have a lack of readily available contraception.

There needs to be a shift in thinking, it's lazy to say we just need to breed more.

I think the Pope does raise a valid point specifically about Italy.

Of course in the UK we have two MPs who are trying single handedly to solve the issue, even if neither change nappies.

In Italy nothing is free. Each child has to be paid for in terms of schooling etc books are expensive and not free.
I notice though that when Italian people find work in other countries they do definitely have more than 1 child, so it is Italy as a country that is a massive problem for people.
Italy should have no financial problems. It is a tremendously wealthy country. The goods and exports Italy produces is matched by hardly any other country, so the money is ending up in the wrong hands obviously.
There has been a definite shift in family values within the Italian culture. Once a culture that was enveyed the world over for it's values has been replaced with people being selfish, insular and greedy. Looking to American culture for influence which is about as bad as a society can get.

Spain is the same. Very low birthrate but the gov puts their heads in the sand.

There's a multitude of reasons, it's not like people all of a sudden just decided to not have kids.

@Betterbear There has been a definite shift in family values within the Italian culture. Once a culture that was enveyed the world over for it's values has been replaced with people being selfish, insular and greedy. Looking to American culture for influence which is about as bad as a society can get.

Interesting that you wrap this into a comment on the birth rate though. Having no or few children is not selfish and people did not bang out multiple children in past generations due to altruistic ideals.

If more people are realising you don’t have to have children to have a good and fulfilling life, that motherhood is not the pinnacle of womanhood for all women, then that can only be a good thing.

@cosmiccosmos

What will happen to the imported care workers as they age? Who will fund their health care? If all the immigrants become care workers then how does the rest of the economy function? How do we generate the increasing amounts of money to pay them if our population is ageing and we are becoming economically less productive?

Noone is suggesting forcing people to have children. But surely you must accept that in order to keep things ticking over, you need a certain level of replenishment of the population.

Plus, I don't think most European nations are happy about immigration levels as it is. They already think there are too many immigrants/foreigners in their country. I don't think they want to welcome millions more. Hence why we are seeing a shift towards more right wing governments and policy in Europe. So if more immigration is not welcome by the population then I guess the choices are:

1. Accept that as you age you will have less and less access to health care. You will die alone and uncared for, as according to you elderly people don't deserve care and should die as soon as they are unable to care for themselves.

1. We take measures to encourage more people to have children. No force involved, I'm talking about incentives. So they can live happy and productive lives, contribute to the economy, culture and society. And shock, horror, reproduce themselves, thereby continuing the cycle of life!

The old age dependency ratios is going to be economically crippling and socially destabilizing. Those countries with the lowest fertility rates are going to feel it first. Give it twenty years and the handwringing about global population size will be old news.

Historically (not that long ago either) they've expressed zero concern for the welfare of women and children re. family planning, contraception, maternal health, medically ill-advised frequency of pregnancies and births, marital rape and coercion, domestic abuse, inability to financially and emotionally support so many unplanned children, malnutrition, parentification and so on. I've yet to see an apology.

This.

As usual it's victim blaming. If you want women to have more children make work life more accessible and family life more balanced. Women are far more aware of what many of them give up through having children. Obviously there are lots of men who do pull their weight in households but there are many men who just leave it all to women, especially once they have children.

Society can help by making childcare cheaper and making misogyny socially unacceptable. Unfortunately a misogynistic organisation like the Catholic Church is not exactly going to lead the way on this.

At current replacement rate there will be no Italians in 150 years apparently.

Demographics is a minefield though. One minute you read there's way too many people and we're all going to die horribly

Next it's ' there aren't enough people being born to pay our pensions '. And we're all going to die horribly.

Popey says our pets will go to heaven though. So there's that.

He’s totally wrong. There’s too many people in the world.

As it ever was the Catholic Church only cares about the Catholic Church. See also: every other religion
They need as many indoctrinated followers as possible to continue to believe in the nonsense and donate money so old men can live in palaces.

It is massive though. Since I was born (I'm 48) the world population has doubled. 4 bill to 8 billion. And when I was born 99.9%of the planet used less resources. As a young kid we didn't have central heating, go on a plane, have a car, I had about 15 toys compared to my kids having about 100, all clothes second hand and worn for much longer, my mum still darned socks and patched our trousers. We are much more locally produced stuff, very little "foreign" food (even though my mum is an immigrant).
We are killing the planet at a incredible rate and the majority of that lies on the West. The sad thing is that in many of the places with vast population growth (India, Nigeria, sub Saharan Africa, China) that if the development was done in a green way the impact would be so much better, but the oil companies etc are so fucking corrupt that instead of solar panels being installed coal and gas and nuclear is, car are being run on petrol. In places with sunshine 80% of the time. If like, Brazil where most cars are run on ethanol (because they had no oil in the country and because of geopolitics at the time wanted to be self-sufficient) other options had been developed it would be a very different world. The West could and should have funded it but the political will isn't there because people are too stupid to see the impact of climate change.

people who go on about pets being their children are unhinged and annoying

I have two dogs (NOT bloody “fur babies”) and I totally agree!

1. @chilliplant634 *Accept that as you age you will have less and less access to health care. You will die alone and uncared for, as according to you elderly people don't deserve care and should die as soon as they are unable to care for themselves.

1. We take measures to encourage more people to have children. No force involved, I'm talking about incentives. So they can live happy and productive lives, contribute to the economy, culture and society. And shock, horror, reproduce themselves, thereby continuing the cycle of life!*

These are not the only two options. Why would people choose to have more children so they can prop up a failing low paid care sector? That’s certainly not going to motivate me.
The care sector isn’t going to struggle because there aren’t enough people to do the work. It’s because the work is poorly paid and operates under poor contracts. More babies isn’t the answer to that. The answer is a fundamental restructure of how we fund care and what it looks like.
Far too many people are more concerned about how they keep their assets when they go into a care home so someone else’s children can wipe their arse for minimum wage.

The difference between the birth rate in say Italy compared to Sweden where childcare is subsidised significantly, parental leave is much more evenly distributed and financially remunerated but the differences in birth rate aren’t exactly vast 1.24 be 1.66, and swedens birth rate is also falling. It says that the biggest impact on birth rate is ultimately personal choice.

There won't be too many young Italians though. Who will generate tax returns to support generation after generation of childless adults? Who will find them social support when frailty inhibits independence? Who will provide the care?

You can import masses of immigrants of course - eventually far more in number than the national population - but creating social and political cohesion among many different peoples isn't an easy thing to achieve - which is clearly a radical understatement.

Or maybe people are hoping for an army of arse wiping super robots to manage the inevitable decline?

Maybe he does have a point but it's a bit rich coming from a man who has taken a vow of celibacy.

I've haven't opened the link.

The pope never has a point, the pope can unequivocally fuck off.

The more children there are the more there are for their priests to abuse innit

@Sissynova I agree with you. And this is what I mentioned in my previous posts- the cultural shift towards people not wanting children.

What is the solution then? Where will the money come from for higher wages for care workers?

I suppose eventually there will be a machine which churns out pert-buttocked altar boys.

For people that say that not having children is not selfish. My childless friends in their 40's spend their time going to concerts, drinking, going to expensive restaurants, new cars every few years, expensive holidays, expensive clothes, expensive home renovations. Indulging their pets. Playing their video games for hours at a time well into the night.

They may not want children, but they sure as heck want an eternal youth for themselves. Not sure what else I would call it?

What a stupid comment. You sound like a peach of a friend.

I can tell you I don’t know a single person who hasn’t had a children for selfish reasons which amount to ‘I want’. No one has children for some altruistic ‘think of the the future care workers’ reasons.

‘I want a baby because they are cute’ ‘I want a mini me’ ‘I want a full dining table when they are older’
Are those less selfish than wanting to be child free?

The world is vastly overpopulated and no serious scientist thinks it couldn't run just as well with about half the population. In fact, as global warming makes large tracts of the planet's surface unlivable maybe some thought should be given to where those people are supposed to go.

Lowering birthrate causes some short term demographic / economic problems . Overpopulation causes far greater problems economically, socially and environmentally.

I'm childless and in my 40s and apart from having pets I don't do any of those things. Any spare money goes into savings and my pension.

But, you know what, though it wouldn't be my scene, there is absolutely nothing wrong with your friends' lifestyles. Plenty of folk with children do all those things too. Are your childless friends supposed to shut themselves away because they haven't procreated?