Page 3 | To think the pope has a point??

HiggleDyPigGeldy · 2023-05-12T23:07:23+00:00

[[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65572153 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65572153]] I was in Italy recently and visited several large towns in the North. More dogs being walked than babies in buggies.

Sissynova · 13/05/2023 07:18

@GrumpyPanda Maybe they could open a creche at the Vatican as their own small part in helping mothers get back to work.

Who in their right mind would leave their children in a crèche in the Vatican?!! Are you joking?

KimberleyClark · 13/05/2023 07:19

I notice Giorgia Meloni, the Italian prime minister, “does not consider herself a feminist”.

gelatogina · 13/05/2023 07:20

The Catholic Church likes women to be silenced, compliant and certainly not out working and independent. And like many others have commented, their track record for babies and children well…looking to make money by selling a few more to the Americans are they?

Wishawisha · 13/05/2023 07:21

Loria · 13/05/2023 01:16

The Catholic church has no business giving instructions on family life/anything to do with children. It puts babies in septic tanks ffs.

That said, the declining global birthrate and especially the cliff edge European birthrate is a concern. Plus, people who go on about pets being their children are unhinged and annoying.

So, I guess I can see both sides.

Pretty much this. There is a falling birth rate in Europe that needs to be discussed because it has huge implications for the near future… Some of that debate may also need to be that people are choosing to have smaller families and maybe we need to accept this but also discuss what the future looks like then - healthcare and pension wise.

Lots of lots of discussion needs to be had. But the Catholic Church can step out of the conversation please.

Unexpecteddrivinginstructor · 13/05/2023 07:23

I do not generally agree with the Pope, but with cost of living and policies on childcare it does feel as if eugenics has never really gone away - reproduce but only if you can afford it. Survival of the richest.

I think there should be more support for options such as both parents working part time and SAHP for those who wish to, but with adequate protection in the case of relationship breakdown. It will need both policy and society shifts.

MyFaceIsAnAONB · 13/05/2023 07:24

ThatsAboutEnoughOfThat · 13/05/2023 00:29

Bit rich given he has decided to have none?

In any case, there are over 8 billion humans, we're good for humans.

Italy isn’t though. The issue is unequal distribution of things - people, food, resources, money.

MyFaceIsAnAONB · 13/05/2023 07:27

Also, there are 8 billion people because people aren’t dying, not because too many people are being born 🤷🏻‍♀️

Wishawisha · 13/05/2023 07:31

frankgu · 13/05/2023 05:13

You're right its a major issue, I can't see how will we turn things around economically from the situation we are now.

I'm astonished that no-one seems to have clocked on to it. Politicians seem to be just ignoring it.

I'm pretty sure D Cameron had started to look at it but then Brexit derailed plus there's a lot of people in the UK who refuse to acknowledge the issue & think everyone has too many kids, bizarre!

Politicians of all parties prefer to brush it under the carpet I guess. It’s hardly going to make you more electable to say that an aging population means that generous pensions may need to be fazed out, that funding the NHS will get harder and harder and that we need to talk about euthanasia (and that even after the moral considerations, there would be financial benefits .. which makes the prospect a bit unpalatable). A winning manifesto!

KimberleyClark · 13/05/2023 07:31

Prescottdanni123 · 13/05/2023 07:02

It sounds like that woman that he told off needed compassion, not a telling off. There is a very probable chance that she can't have children, either physically or financially. So she is using a dog as a baby to try to satisfy her craving to be a mother. While pets are an important part of the family, I don't think that they should be treated the same way as human babies, and I am saying that as a big softie of a dog owner. But for people who desperately want children and can't have them, the pain must be horrific and I can understand why they may resort to this. So I treat them with compassion, not condemnation. This is a woman who may have had miscarriage after miscarriage or been told that she would never be able to physically have a child. And he is scolding her in front of a crows about how there are starving children in the world? Wow, just wow. This man is supposed to be a Christian. And I'm saying that as a Christian myself, too.

The Catholic Church, like most organised religions, is a bleak, compassionless place for those whom God has chosen not to bless with children.

Eviebeans · 13/05/2023 07:33

Loria · 13/05/2023 01:28

Yea I'm thinking Vatican creche won't have many takers.

I wouldn’t leave my dog at a Vatican crèche

chilliplant634 · 13/05/2023 07:34

TedMullins · 13/05/2023 02:17

What’s actually wrong with wanting to have a luxurious and indulgent life rather than children though? I’m not talking one with a high carbon footprint either before anyone jumps in. Just a life where you can please yourself and pursue your passions. That isn’t an inherently bad or amoral choice. Make things better so people who want kids can have them, but why the need to try and change the minds of people who don’t want kids?

I absolutely agree society needs to support mothers more - free childcare and a cultural shift to 50/50 parenting rather than women taking the brunt of the work for a start - but personally no amount of policy change would make me have a kid. You could offer me £1million in cash and I still wouldn’t because I simply don’t want to. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with choosing to prioritise yourself and your wants/needs over the sacrificial nature of parenthood.

This is a society, policy and infrastructure problem, not an individual one. The pope was so close when he talked about high cost of living, low wages etc…then he made it about pets.

Show quote history

Just be clear- I'm not saying either is wrong or right. It was simply an observation on how culture and values have changed. The whole point I'm making is that its not just about supporting parents and throwing more money at it. People are choosing to have less children even when they have the resources to do so, for whatever their personal reasons are.

If you are a government or policy maker, it is this that would need to be overcome in order for people to have more children. And for this reason I don't think this is a trend that can be reversed.

cosmiccosmos · 13/05/2023 07:40

So climate change is and will continue to have a catastrophic effect on the wold. We will see hundreds of thousands in fact probably millions of people migrating to the West. The world is over populated and unless population is addressed then it will get worse.

We need people to help old people because rather than them dying we keep them alive as long as possible, often with no quality of life. But we are told we need to have more babies so they can do these jobs. Most people don't want these jobs. They also don't pay well, certainly not enough to be able to rent/buy a house etc.

The Pope and all the people saying women need to have more babies can get lost. My role as a human is to live my life how I want to live it, not to produce babies for other people.

We don't need more people there isn't enough to go round, too many living in poverty.

Sissynova · 13/05/2023 07:44

Unexpecteddrivinginstructor · 13/05/2023 07:23

I do not generally agree with the Pope, but with cost of living and policies on childcare it does feel as if eugenics has never really gone away - reproduce but only if you can afford it. Survival of the richest.

I think there should be more support for options such as both parents working part time and SAHP for those who wish to, but with adequate protection in the case of relationship breakdown. It will need both policy and society shifts.

I don’t really see how it’s eugenics at all. The birth rate is still higher in communities with lower incomes compared to higher incomes so that just doesn’t ring too. And people have significantly more money and resources than they did 70 years ago when they regularly popped out 5,6,7,8 kids each.

My parents are both 1 of 8 and they lived in absolute poverty as many families did at that time. They didn’t chose to have loads of kids because they could afford it, they were forced into it due to no access to contraception. There is a reason the majority of people don’t chose to have families that size now, it’s because they can avoid it! Most of them never wanted it in the first place.

chilliplant634 · 13/05/2023 07:49

cosmiccosmos · 13/05/2023 07:40

So climate change is and will continue to have a catastrophic effect on the wold. We will see hundreds of thousands in fact probably millions of people migrating to the West. The world is over populated and unless population is addressed then it will get worse.

We need people to help old people because rather than them dying we keep them alive as long as possible, often with no quality of life. But we are told we need to have more babies so they can do these jobs. Most people don't want these jobs. They also don't pay well, certainly not enough to be able to rent/buy a house etc.

The Pope and all the people saying women need to have more babies can get lost. My role as a human is to live my life how I want to live it, not to produce babies for other people.

We don't need more people there isn't enough to go round, too many living in poverty.

What do you suggest happens with old people then? Should we just abandon people as they start ageing and developing health issues, just because "nobody wants to do the job" ??

How would this play out in reality? You are 68 years old living independently. One day you slip and have a fall. You struggle to recover your mobility after this. Do you think help should be offered or not? What if they have a stroke and need significant help in day to living? Let's just leave them to die because that's what would happen if we left them to nature?

If everyone in society thinks this selfishly then I think society as we know it will completely break down. I don't see any hope for the future

SunnyEgg · 13/05/2023 07:50

Well there’s also climate change looming and continuously growing populations may not help

The catholic religion has always been based on reproduction issues, I’m not that amenable to hearing more.

Irequireausername · 13/05/2023 07:51

Birth rates have declined in central and south america, most of asia and europe.

Garethkeenansstapler · 13/05/2023 07:53

Maybe they could open a creche at the Vatican

😳

Garethkeenansstapler · 13/05/2023 07:53

He means more Catholics should have children because membership is falling.

AuntieJune · 13/05/2023 07:57

Every child should be a wanted child.

cosmiccosmos · 13/05/2023 07:59

So @chilliplant634 you think women should just breed to produce humans to do this? How about we get some of those people who live in countries that are struggling to come and do the work? We'll have to house them and pay them benefits as the pay is too low but we have to do this with our own population. Or how about we let people decide that they don't want to 'live' in a care home not being able to feed, wash and dress themselves?

There are people to do the work they just might not be in the right place. There are too many who don't want to work, having babies in the hope that the new lot will take up these jobs is absolute madness. People are getting sicker (have you seen the diabetes crisis) seem to have more conditions that need help than ever before!

The problem isn't population but wealth distribution.

AuntieJune · 13/05/2023 07:59

I find it quite hilarious how the church teaching on contraception is so ludicrous, 95% of churchgoers ignore it and everyone just keeps quiet about it.

I grew up going to Catholic church and schools - I knew maybe two families with more than 4 children.

furryfrontbottom · 13/05/2023 08:00

HiggleDyPigGeldy · 13/05/2023 00:32

Now I’m genuinely curious - to all of those who push the “the world needs fewer humans” line: do you actually live a green existence? Or are you part of that privileged minority of people (who typically live in North America or Europe) with a disproportionately large carbon footprint?
and is it because you are wealthy that you are unconcerned about the impact if shrinking population on your quality of life? Perhaps you think you will still be able to afford a decent old age despite labour and healthcare becoming increasingly expensive?
It just feels so hypocritical to me, all these people who expect everyone else to be deprived of family and comforts when they are living their best life driving cars, eating imported food, and flying around the world for fun - but hey, babies are bad for the planet.

I'm not sure how giving up my car would make it easier for someone else to have a child.

WeightInLine · 13/05/2023 08:03

HiggleDyPigGeldy · 13/05/2023 00:32

Now I’m genuinely curious - to all of those who push the “the world needs fewer humans” line: do you actually live a green existence? Or are you part of that privileged minority of people (who typically live in North America or Europe) with a disproportionately large carbon footprint?
and is it because you are wealthy that you are unconcerned about the impact if shrinking population on your quality of life? Perhaps you think you will still be able to afford a decent old age despite labour and healthcare becoming increasingly expensive?
It just feels so hypocritical to me, all these people who expect everyone else to be deprived of family and comforts when they are living their best life driving cars, eating imported food, and flying around the world for fun - but hey, babies are bad for the planet.

This is so true.

It is a huge mistake to make children an unaffordable luxury.

theleafandnotthetree · 13/05/2023 08:11

PriOn1 · 13/05/2023 07:01

I think the current pope seems to be a genuinely decent man. He has made quite a lot of good points on various contentious topics and seems generally very tolerant. So yes, this sounds like he is both knowledgeable about this situation and has spoken about it rationally.

And also, it is literally his job to lead the Catholic Church which includes sharing his observations and philosophy on societal trends and shifting values. As it happens, I share many of his opinions on materialism, the environment etc. But even if I deeply disagreed with him I would see it as part of his role to talk about these things. It is part of being a living church, concerning itself with people's real lives and the challenges they face. And I'm pretty much an atheist BTW.

Sissynova · 13/05/2023 08:16

AuntieJune · 13/05/2023 07:59

I find it quite hilarious how the church teaching on contraception is so ludicrous, 95% of churchgoers ignore it and everyone just keeps quiet about it.

I grew up going to Catholic church and schools - I knew maybe two families with more than 4 children.

They ignore it now because they can and most people don’t agree with the ludicrous teachings.

However contraception only became accessible in the mid 80s in Ireland due to the control of the CC. This obviously had a massive impact on family size and it’s very telling that it dropped as soon as people had that control.