To think the pope has a point??

[HiggleDyPigGeldy]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65572153

I was in Italy recently and visited several large towns in the North. More dogs being walked than babies in buggies.

Like him or dislike him we need more leaders addressing this. And actually, we need more men on the case.

Getting women back into the workplace with ease it would go a long way to mitigation of this problem. But corporates don't want that.

The cost of having a family is silly bugger land at this point. Add to that the fact that we live in neuclear units, extended family help is unusal for most etc etc etc.

One thing that strikes me - they always say the economic contribution of women in the past is hard to quantify. Not any more - care costs in the billions for most developed countries is a very revealing story.

This thread got dark quick … But yes have to agree don’t think the Vatican crèche will catch on somehow! 🤔🤣

In all seriousness I think it’s up to people as individuals as to whether they choose to reproduce or not. I can understand with todays cost of living crisis (although not sure how things are in Italy) peoples decisions to not have children, probably to save extra financial strain on them, and also because what sort of future would their children have?

Times are a bit depressing at the moment so I can’t criticise people who don’t want to bring more people into the world right now.

Given the level of vitriol and abuse handed out to single mothers and women in general by the catholic church over the generations, I think the Pope should shut up, cut the hypocrisy and mind his own business.

Many women choose to have fewer children because it protects their health, their financial freedom and their independence. I chose to have one happy, loved, well-provided-for dc, rather than five largely ignored, jumble-sale-dressed street kids (my parents).

The catholic church wants to return to a time of large, poorly educated families who relied on the catholic church and were therefore under its influence. Thankfully those days are gone and won't be back.

The planet needs fewer humans. And fewer bigoted old men.

The catholic church wants to return to a time of large, poorly educated families who relied on the catholic church and were therefore under its influence. Thankfully those days are gone and won't be back.

The planet needs fewer humans. And fewer bigoted old men.

He is saying the complete opposite though. He recognises that costs are too high for families, people cannot afford to have a family. He clearly states that only rich people can afford children now. He says that is wrong.

He is not advocating large, poor families. He is advocating for governments to support families/ people who want children.

Where do you think the catholic church gets its money? From large congregations and collection plates. They can't do that if the population is falling. Don't be fooled that the Pope gives a toot about women. That hasn't happened in the last two thousand years.

The very idea that people be paid to have children is sick. The people to suffer will be the women pressured into having more children than they want or should physically give birth to, and the children who are nothing more than a source of revenue to men.

Yes, of course childcare should be more accessible and yes women should have greater rights and more protection in the workplace. But financial incentives are not the way to go, and if we are to retain body autonomy then women must decide when/if to have a child.

the article is good, as is the concept the headline is click bait.

He just wants more Catholics so that numbers grow. He couldn’t care less about birth rates in predominantly non Catholic countries.

I’m generally of the “people can have as many or as few kids as they like, or not have kids at all” opinion, however I don’t really agree with the “we don’t need more humans on this planet” narrative (although I get the ecological idea behind it).
The impact of aging populations can be seen already in places like Japan and it’s not pretty.

Yes more people in the over populated world, that is exactly what we need

🙄 we are over populated in the west because people are living longer. An ageing population is a sign of progress but it's not particularly fiscally rewarding.

The point of his speech was that there isn't enough support and that people can't afford to have families.

which is an excellent point

You're right its a major issue, I can't see how will we turn things around economically from the situation we are now.

I'm astonished that no-one seems to have clocked on to it. Politicians seem to be just ignoring it.

I'm pretty sure D Cameron had started to look at it but then Brexit derailed plus there's a lot of people in the UK who refuse to acknowledge the issue & think everyone has too many kids, bizarre!

Now I’m genuinely curious - to all of those who push the “the world needs fewer humans” line: do you actually live a green existence? Or are you part of that privileged minority of people (who typically live in North America or Europe) with a disproportionately large carbon footprint?
and is it because you are wealthy that you are unconcerned about the impact if shrinking population on your quality of life? Perhaps you think you will still be able to afford a decent old age despite labour and healthcare becoming increasingly expensive?
It just feels so hypocritical to me, all these people who expect everyone else to be deprived of family and comforts when they are living their best life driving cars, eating imported food, and flying around the world for fun - but hey, babies are bad for the planet.

Quite!

The impact of aging populations can be seen already in places like Japan and it’s not pretty.

thing is Japan has at least planned for it & has put certain things in place.

Well said.

Not cynical at all. I think you've nailed it with it all being rooted in power. It's always been this way with the Catholic Church attempting to control by laying down the law re all aspects of family. It was very much a thing in the 70s when I was a child that the 'family' was everything but the parish priest was very much seen as the person who had to approve your way of living.

I don’t think the Catholic Church has any business expressing an opinion on children. Given their track record.

People choose to have smaller families when ...
Child mortality is low
Social welfare net is good

We should aspire to those things and then people have maximum choice how many children they have; this is what informs my views on why fewer humans is good thing. We don't need to decide to create fewer humans, we need to create great conditions for nearly all babies (that they will become healthy adults with good prospects) and nearly all old people (then they don't need large families as pensions).

Declining population would be an Outcome of equitable fair healthy societies. That's why "fewer humans" is a good thing. It doesn't have to be coerced at all, too.

I am not sure Pope is saying anything in conflict to what I'm saying; he seems to be talking about choice, too.

A creche in the vatican, parents might as well leave their children with rolf harris.

I think the current pope seems to be a genuinely decent man. He has made quite a lot of good points on various contentious topics and seems generally very tolerant. So yes, this sounds like he is both knowledgeable about this situation and has spoken about it rationally.

It sounds like that woman that he told off needed compassion, not a telling off. There is a very probable chance that she can't have children, either physically or financially. So she is using a dog as a baby to try to satisfy her craving to be a mother. While pets are an important part of the family, I don't think that they should be treated the same way as human babies, and I am saying that as a big softie of a dog owner. But for people who desperately want children and can't have them, the pain must be horrific and I can understand why they may resort to this. So I treat them with compassion, not condemnation. This is a woman who may have had miscarriage after miscarriage or been told that she would never be able to physically have a child. And he is scolding her in front of a crows about how there are starving children in the world? Wow, just wow. This man is supposed to be a Christian. And I'm saying that as a Christian myself, too.

I absolutely agree society needs to support mothers more - free childcare and a cultural shift to 50/50 parenting rather than women taking the brunt of the work for a start - but personally no amount of policy change would make me have a kid. You could offer me £1million in cash and I still wouldn’t because I simply don’t want to. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with choosing to prioritise yourself and your wants/needs over the sacrificial nature of parenthood.

Yes, absolutely this. Cats, yes. Children, no.

The Pope is probably thinking about the future supply of priests for the church as well.

I read that wrong and got a shiver down my spine...

Tackling a declining birthrate is something that western governments need to do more about, but I doubt many women are going to be listening to the views of a childless old man who is in charge of an organisation that refuses to allow women into positions of leadership in it. Railing against pets is also a weird flex as well.

As others have pointed out, the issues are related to the continuance of structural inequality and sexism that still makes some choose between their careers and having a family.

I was in Italy recently and visited several large towns in the North. More dogs being walked than babies in buggies.

And?

Birth rates are lower in pretty much every developed country than they were 70 years ago and they is a conscious choice. Women use contraception and aren’t forced into a live of being a domestic slave with 10 children wrapped around her ankles.

I’m not going to take the Pope’s opinion on how many children people should have seriously while the Catholic Church are still anti contraception.
Ireland is thriving now it is releasing itself from the shackles of the CC.