To think the pope has a point??

[HiggleDyPigGeldy]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65572153

I was in Italy recently and visited several large towns in the North. More dogs being walked than babies in buggies.

If it's a lifestyle that suits them, who are you to judge? You sound bitter.

It's absolutely true that contraception and women's rights tend to result in fewer children - but are the number of children that women are having now the number of children that they want or are family sizes stymied by economic and other social factors?

If it's the latter then there is the opportunity to create a better landscape for more children which could offset the severity of population decline and the severity of consequences.

There is a huge difference in outcome of fertility rates drop to say, 1.8 than if they crash through the floor at .8.

For people saying having children isn't selfish. I've heard of parents in their 40s abusing their children, not feeding them properly, hitting them or assaulting them. They may want children but they sure as heck don't want to be good parents. Not sure what else I would call it?

Somehow when the topic of child free by choice women (always women, never men who don't have children) are discussed much always seems to be made about how they spend their time with lots of judgemental comments. But when some posters are making out how much more virtuous parents are as if parents don't also go to restaurants or go on holiday or buy clothes or get new cars, they seem to forget that some parents are complete and utter arseholes.

So maybe some childfree people arent nice. Neither are some parents. The choice whether or not to have children is not a signifier of how selfish or not a person is otherwise we wouldnt need a constant running 'we took you to stately homes' thread.

I think its less about affordability and more about basic choice. Women have choices these days over their bodies, over their lifestyles, over their relationships. Growing numbers are happy to say they only want one child, not because they cant afford a second child, but because they dont want one. Or even dont want any at all.

The very large families I work with all come from the lower socio economic groups, those on benefits or very low incomes. Yes there is a catch 22 because if you're on a middling wage then you get less help but still there are free nursery hours and we have free at the point of delivery education and health, something a lot of countries around the world dont have

The undesirable truth is that humans may well die out over time, not all species survive. There are too many humans in the world anyway.

And as a few posters have identified, why the moral judgement on people choosing money over children anyway, if thats whats happening (which Im not convinced of). There's no 'rule' that says that humans have to desparately want family life.

I have friends & family who don't want dc which is a completely valid choice & life without dc is of course great if that's your choice. Equally I know friends & family who would love another dc but can't afford it or feel too old because they waited to be more financially secure. I'd have another if I could afford it.

The elephant in the room for some is the fact that the Christian population in many places are being replaced by Muslims and that is going to extend to the whole white population. We'll never be under populated because you are never going to convince Muslim men to lower their family size, likewise the men in African countries (although they will get the Church's backing because they are Catholic).

Has anyone got round to asking why non-parents are on Mumsnet yet? Everyone remember to shout BINGO when it happens.

For me, having kids would be a nightmare for multiple reasons. I have the sense to recognise that and not decide that I’m going to do it anyway because of social pressure.

That doesn’t make me selfish. It makes me realistic.

We need people to help old people because rather than them dying we keep them alive as long as possible, often with no quality of life. But we are told we need to have more babies so they can do these jobs.

It's not just about the actual job of a nurse or doctor, where's the tax going to come from?

Let the rich make their own labour slaves.

Are you retired? I already am a labour slave!

Lowering birthrate causes some short term demographic / economic problems .

Can you explain why you think a smaller population that is mainly older is only going cause some short term problems? @DisquietintheRanks

I thought everyone knew childless women were on here so they could be berated multiple times in December if they are not working on Christmas Day to spare parents, even if their job doesnt require them to work Christmas day...

Also, there are 8 billion people because people aren’t dying, not because too many people are being born

which no one ever addresses. If you are wringing your hands about overpopulation in the west I assume you believe in not keeping the elderly living as long as possible?

Whats the problem there?

I’d assume that the elderly in need of care will die off. Lower population means eventually there is less elderly overall. It’s a short term issue looking at it in terms of the history of the human race. Long term if you’re a government elected for 4-5 years. It’s all about perspective, no?

When the Tories introduced the cap on benefits targeted at women having more than two children?

Oh, yeah, I forgot, it's only working class women they want to discourage from having more children.

And this was the year when we saw soaring rates in abortions. It was the craziest act of self sabotage.

Sounds great! Not sure what your point is or what you think is wrong with that

I’d assume that the elderly in need of care will die off. Lower population means eventually there is less elderly overall.

No I'm taking about the demographic shift, having more older people then young regardless if there are less people overall. How will that "short term" issue be managed now? Look at the NHS & social care, job shortages & the economy now or pension age for people under 40. There isn't even enough suitable housing to cope with the elderly population, not to mention many of the younger older people (eg over 50 under 65) don't own their own homes.

Please more younger people with the means & opportunity will just emigrate like we are seeing within healthcare.

plus not pls

If the Pope wants more people to choose parenthood, he could encourage the male members of his flock to do their fair share of childcare and housework, and point out that failing to do so is sloth and therefore a mortal sin.

Exactly, why is popping out a load of kids with no regard for who is going to pay for them BECAUSE YOU WANT TO any less selfish than not having any?

And that’s something that needs to be addressed in a way that doesn’t mean coercing people to have children to feed what is essentially a pyramid scheme. That’s just buying time, not solving the problem.

@whumpthereitis who is coercing or advocating it? I think it's ok to recognise that there is an issue with affordability around having children for some people.

@whumpthereitis how would you address it out of interest?

A few pp have said they knew they didn’t want dc and others pointing out some parents are not good

I’m all for taking out the societal pressure to have dc, especially on women

Yes most of us are labour slaves so why make more and more unless you think they can also have a good fulfilling life? Propping up our society to me isn’t a good enough reason. Also the point was that fewer people might make more choices for the next generation; more freedom and autonomy.