Page 4 | Why is it ok to be violent and insulting to a woman who makes a mistake.

whatisgoingonintheworld · 2023-05-10T13:26:05+00:00

A female calls a person 'lady' in error because she thought the person was female. The person identifies as non binary. The trans manager then verbally insults and finally physically assaults the woman and the man outside. Is this really what we have come to. A simple word and the non binary is upset and so the trans person can kick a customer from the shop, purposefully insult and then assault. So is misgendering (even by accident) so serious it merits verbal abuse and physical violence? I mean it isn't even obvious whether the person she called 'lady' behind the counter is non binary, looks female. The trans woman manager looks male and certainly acts it! Why are so many trans women displaying what was formally seen as masculine traits (violence) now that they identify as female.

lifeturnsonadime · 10/05/2023 15:24

So let's get this straight, male member of staff is verbally abusive to a middle aged woman uses a misogynistic term towards her and is violent to her partner because she correctly sexed someone and it's the woman's fault for asking for it?

Rule of Misogyny Number 1.

Women are responsible for what men do.

I bet that young man wouldn't have been so rude and aggressive to a male customer who had made the same 'mistake'.

I'm glad Starbucks have sacked him. If I go out for a coffee I don't expect to have to go along with another persons gender delusions or else suffer abuse.

lifeturnsonadime · 10/05/2023 15:25

PinkyU · 10/05/2023 15:03

As we’re all advised by the experts over in feminism to do I have reported this thread for countless examples of misgendering.

Correctly sexing.

His gender is unclear, no one knows whether he is a She or a They.

Fladdermus · 10/05/2023 15:26

Man abuses woman and the conclusion of many on this thread is that she must have done/said something to provoke it. Because it's always the woman's fault isn't it.

lifeturnsonadime · 10/05/2023 15:26

PinkyU · 10/05/2023 15:03

As we’re all advised by the experts over in feminism to do I have reported this thread for countless examples of misgendering.

And so far as I know compelled speech is not the law.

ReadersD1gest · 10/05/2023 15:27

funinthesun19 · 10/05/2023 15:22

Fgs. How was she supposed to know the non binary person is non binary unless they stamp in on their forehead? Lots of people still think a person who looks like a she doesn’t mind being called a she. It’s easy to forget about the non binary trend.

And even if the customer did know the non binary person is non binary and still called her a woman, the manager was beyond unprofessional to kick off and use her/his/their/its (?) job as a platform to kick off with random members of the public.

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It's a whole lot of things, but "complicated" seriously isn't one of them...
Where are the complications for you, @whatisgoingonintheworld ?

Annoyingwurringnoise · 10/05/2023 15:27

fabbykadabra · 10/05/2023 14:42

Obviously violence isn’t okay and I’m not sure where it’s been implied that it is?

Without seeing the start of the interaction it’s difficult to understand why the situation escalated so much. This is definitely not a typical reaction to innocent misgendering, so either there is more context that we have missed to explain why the manager was so riled up (not that that excuses her becoming physically violent) or just a case of the manager being aggressive. Her being trans is largely irrelevant, just as with any other demographic there are good and bad people. One aggressive trans person isn’t a reflection on trans people as a whole and most would not act this way over one mistake.

It’s the man who’s the manager who was being physically violent, not the woman. The woman looks quite calm whilst he is shouting at her and clapping in her face. I’d be bloody terrified if a man was being aggressive like that towards me.

And it doesn’t matter what she said, it doesn’t give him an excuse to kick off like that. What an absolute psycho he is.

Original poster

whatisgoingonintheworld · 10/05/2023 15:27

Fadedstripes · 10/05/2023 15:20

So what biological sex was the person called Lady out of interest? Because I’m not clicking on the clip but assume the people in it are customer left and manager right.

I have almost always called everyone mate, unsure why just always have for decades, it’s pretty handy these days.

Plus can someone clarify non binary to me as a term, does it mean a person identifies as neither gender but can be either bio sex but gives no indication of sexuality or asexuality. Could be straight, gay, bi or asexual?

Gender of them/they non binary but in appearance look biologically female and so the customer make a mistake. The mistake wasn't directed to the tall and intimidating manager though (not sure if tall intimidating sacked manager is them/they or man or trans woman though or trans male - the article just says trans manager.

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SweetiePi3 · 10/05/2023 15:28

Ilovetea42 · 10/05/2023 14:35

I mean I've watched the video - the manager was not violent towards the woman and they attempted to remove the phone from the other customer who was recording them. If someone was trying to record me out of context without my consent likely to put on social media with their own spin I 100% would be angry and want them to stop recording. I also think it's impossible to know the context from a 50 second video. I think it's fair for customers to be asked to leave for abusing staff whether due to race/ gender/disability etc and I think it's fair for a manager to defend their staff team. We have only one side of the story here which is the person who was being asked to leave and their husband who was filming so it's hardly an impartial article is it? We've no way to know if they repeatedly do this, if they did it on purpose, if they come in regularly and are difficult towards staff etc.

The vast majority of trans and non binary people understand that misunderstandings will happen and usually all that's expected is an apology and correct gendering going forwards. Its highly unlikely that's what happened here.

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It's perfectly legal to record or photo anyone in public. Most of us are filmed everywhere we go everyday.

Tiddlypomtiddlypom · 10/05/2023 15:29

Ilovetea42 · 10/05/2023 14:45

Just because she's a customer does not give her the right to shout at the staff and be rude which is what she was doing. I thought the manager was quite restrained to begin with, if a customer acted that way towards me I'd want them removed as well. She was well out of order to begin with

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Were you there, then? Because the video didn’t show the beginning of the incident. It showed the manager looming over the customer, using misogynistic slurs, using typical aggressive tactics and shouting at her, for referring to a person who says they identify as non-binary as a lady, something she couldn’t possibly know.

She was defending herself saying she was not transphobic. And I don’t believe she is. The ‘manager’ saw an opportunity to bully and make a scene and by fuck did they take it. And I’m really, really pleased they’ve been sacked.

This sort of behaviour from them does nothing but create tension and sets everyone back.

Redebs · 10/05/2023 15:29

Fladdermus · 10/05/2023 15:26

Man abuses woman and the conclusion of many on this thread is that she must have done/said something to provoke it. Because it's always the woman's fault isn't it.

Exactly.

Even when it is agreed by all concerned that all she did was call a woman, 'a lady'

Original poster

whatisgoingonintheworld · 10/05/2023 15:30

lifeturnsonadime · 10/05/2023 15:24

So let's get this straight, male member of staff is verbally abusive to a middle aged woman uses a misogynistic term towards her and is violent to her partner because she correctly sexed someone and it's the woman's fault for asking for it?

Rule of Misogyny Number 1.

Women are responsible for what men do.

I bet that young man wouldn't have been so rude and aggressive to a male customer who had made the same 'mistake'.

I'm glad Starbucks have sacked him. If I go out for a coffee I don't expect to have to go along with another persons gender delusions or else suffer abuse.

This is my point.

But since it's directed towards a woman, many women come to the defence of the manager who is describe as trans but might be a man/woman/them or identifying as opposite to what they appear to others.

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Tiddlypomtiddlypom · 10/05/2023 15:30

And no one needs permission to film anyone anywhere. It’s totally legal. Except within the precincts of a court.

RunningRunningRunningRunningRunning · 10/05/2023 15:31

I find it impossible to follow these threads, am I the only one who reads these threads and in my head goes "right so a man, pretending to be a woman" "an actual woman pretending she isn't either" and "a woman who is really a woman and not pretending to be anything else". So confusing.

Redebs · 10/05/2023 15:32

RunningRunningRunningRunningRunning · 10/05/2023 15:31

I find it impossible to follow these threads, am I the only one who reads these threads and in my head goes "right so a man, pretending to be a woman" "an actual woman pretending she isn't either" and "a woman who is really a woman and not pretending to be anything else". So confusing.

Totally correct summary of the individuals involved

WallaceinAnderland · 10/05/2023 15:32

Why would you have a problem being filmed if you thought were entitled to behave like that because of perceived provocation?

That person knew they were bang out of order. Don't know why anyone is trying to defend behaviour like that.

Think Starbucks need to up their training.

SweetiePi3 · 10/05/2023 15:33

WallaceinAnderland · 10/05/2023 15:19

Do you know the gender of the assailant? I don't think it's been reported has it?

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I get away calling everyone love, if I don't know their name.

ReadersD1gest · 10/05/2023 15:33

RunningRunningRunningRunningRunning · 10/05/2023 15:31

I find it impossible to follow these threads, am I the only one who reads these threads and in my head goes "right so a man, pretending to be a woman" "an actual woman pretending she isn't either" and "a woman who is really a woman and not pretending to be anything else". So confusing.

Nope, that's exactly how it is. How could it not wreck your head?

lifeturnsonadime · 10/05/2023 15:34

RunningRunningRunningRunningRunning · 10/05/2023 15:31

I find it impossible to follow these threads, am I the only one who reads these threads and in my head goes "right so a man, pretending to be a woman" "an actual woman pretending she isn't either" and "a woman who is really a woman and not pretending to be anything else". So confusing.

Yep wasn't it wonderful when gender expression didn't involve compelling speech for fear of abusive retaliation?

You know when the likes of David Bowie and Annie Lenox wore what they wanted but didn't insist of being seen as the opposite sex or sexless.

These young people think they are are so edgy. Instead they just look a bit daft.

See yourself however you wish but if you need others to affirm you or you might get abusive or violent then no one can help you really can they. So sad.

I hope that the woman (customer) is OK. what a horrid thing to encounter, all she wanted was a cup of coffee.

Original poster

whatisgoingonintheworld · 10/05/2023 15:36

RunningRunningRunningRunningRunning · 10/05/2023 15:31

I find it impossible to follow these threads, am I the only one who reads these threads and in my head goes "right so a man, pretending to be a woman" "an actual woman pretending she isn't either" and "a woman who is really a woman and not pretending to be anything else". So confusing.

A man pretending to be a woman is offended by a woman pretending to be neither sex being called a lady by a biological woman. The man pretending to be a woman calls the biological woman a transphobe and a 'Karen' and refuses a refund and tells her to leave. She wants her money back and insists she's not a transphobe and the man pretending to be a woman gets annoyed, slaps her hands together in biological woman's face and pushes her into the road where she is caught by husband who is a biological man.

Starbucks then interviews the person who isn't sure what sex they are and the customer who is a biological woman and sacks the manager who is referred to as a 'trans manager' throughout (although I'm not sure if he/she/them or they actually manage anyone who is a trans person just a person who isn't sure what they are) who is a man pretending to be a woman. It's all quite farcical.

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Original poster

whatisgoingonintheworld · 10/05/2023 15:39

lifeturnsonadime · 10/05/2023 15:34

Yep wasn't it wonderful when gender expression didn't involve compelling speech for fear of abusive retaliation?

You know when the likes of David Bowie and Annie Lenox wore what they wanted but didn't insist of being seen as the opposite sex or sexless.

These young people think they are are so edgy. Instead they just look a bit daft.

See yourself however you wish but if you need others to affirm you or you might get abusive or violent then no one can help you really can they. So sad.

I hope that the woman (customer) is OK. what a horrid thing to encounter, all she wanted was a cup of coffee.

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Yes. Someone/them/those are trying to make things difficult.

David Bowie, Annie Lennox, Freddie - no fuss, no airs and wonderful.

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DisquietintheRanks · 10/05/2023 15:39

Am confused, who said its OK?

limitedperiodonly · 10/05/2023 15:41

Ilovetea42 · 10/05/2023 14:45

Just because she's a customer does not give her the right to shout at the staff and be rude which is what she was doing. I thought the manager was quite restrained to begin with, if a customer acted that way towards me I'd want them removed as well. She was well out of order to begin with

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@Ilovetea42 I agree. Service staff should not have to endure rude or aggressive behaviour from customers.

Let's say you were the Starbucks branch manager. How would have have dealt with this situation?

I think a calm but firm: "Would you please leave, Madam?" covers it.

If I was Starbucks senior management that is what I'd be looking for in a shop manager which is why that branch manager is looking for new employment. Don't you agree?

determinedtomakethiswork · 10/05/2023 15:41

How should the non-binary person to refer to? For instance, if you are saying, I was talking to the… what would be the correct word?

The tall person was very very aggressive and would've frightened me, but I don't know why the woman's husband didn't come into the shop to stand next to her while it was happening. He could hear what was going on and that his wife was being insulted and frightened. Why did he stand outside?

Pluvia · 10/05/2023 15:42

CountryStore · 10/05/2023 14:33

The manager definitely will have a harder time trying to convince people (s)he's a woman if (s)he behaves like that. Also, s(he) really looks like a young, fairly athletic, tall man, so there's that too

He's a man. Born a man and will always be a man. Humans can't change sex. It's biology 101 and it all comes down to biology. Look, his biology is making him act like the angry.woman-hating man that he is.

Clymene · 10/05/2023 15:43

SweetChilliGirl · 10/05/2023 14:27

Because they're men.

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