She’s too friendly with him?

[Suspiciousmind1]

I’ve had this nagging feeling for a while about a woman who has slowly snuck into our social group. She’s a single mum, attractive, hard worker (a trait my DH finds attractive), has a fair bit in common with my DH, members at a similar sports club….

In January DH went on a sporting holiday, organised my his sports club and on it were several of our mutual friends. I was meant to go too but had to pull out at the last minute due to a sick child. Said girl went on the trip. There was a pretty active group what’s app (which I was on) prior to this and for a few weeks later, so I didn’t think much of their messages. the what’s app has quietened down and I’ve noticed some facebook messages coming up between them. I’m fine with this, or at least I was until recently, as I often message some of our mutual
single male friends.

Since the trip he’s now going to the club more frequently. I assumed it’s to increase his fitness as we’ve both piled on the pounds and are on a health kick. There have now been a few occasions where I’ve been at work and he’s taken our DC out for the day and they’ve randomly ‘bumped into each other.’ Over the bank holiday weekend a message with our mutual friends has been put on FB suggesting meal at our local pub. Guess who turns up too?
On the first May bank holiday we went to an event with some friends… who rocks up?

its all been at the back of my mind but we’re so easy going with things and trust each other to be friends with the opposite sex. However it’s starting to nag away with me. I took our 3 yo to the park last week and she recognised her daughter who was there with her dad. As far as I know, they’ve only met once. Then this morning I got a call from a mutual friend (member of the club, went on the trip, part of the extended friendship group) and this woman came up in conversation. She asked what I thought about their friendship, their messages, the fact that she seems to now turn up to everything. I honestly hadn’t really thought about it to that extent but others are now noticing.

So I did what I vowed I’d never do and I feel so bad for doing so, but I’ve downloaded his messenger back onto our home iPad (I’m sure the app has recently been deleted!!) and I’ve scrolled and scrolled through daily messages.
how’s your day? Where were you this morning (the club activity?) You two going to X’s party?
they’re sending selfies of themselves doing normal yet random things, photos of drinks that obviously remind them of their trip away, he’s sent a couple of photos of him during his work trip abroad.
it turns out she ‘owed’ him money (a pretty considerable amount) from their trip- he’s said it’s his treat! Apparently his first drink when they ‘party’ at an upcoming event is on her…
She was out at a birthday meal with me, he was at home with DC, she’s messaged him saying she’s out with me and I’m really good fun…
It goes on….

in fairness, it’s nothing more than the type of friendly banter you’d have with a friend, but other people are now talking. The messages are secret. Im only finding out about their little ‘random’ meets in passing. I’m now thinking he left a family party on Monday to do a site visit in a village where she’d tagged herself in a street party post. They didn’t meet up, but was he hoping to?

I don’t want to jump the gun here, I don’t want to confront him about messages that he would know I’ve read, I don’t want to say people are talking, I don’t want to be the bad guy here to shoot down their friendship because I don’t trust him…

I want to believe it’s nothing more than friendly banter but I’m really not sure now.

I need to nip it in the bud now though. I know this is how affairs start. How the hell do I handle it?

You do realise how many people 'just ask their partners first' and end up none the wiser? Asking someone about a relationship you suspect will invariably be answered with denial. Sometimes this is the truth, sometimes it's a lie, and you have no way of knowing.
Your assertion that now neither can prove the other to be wrong or lying because the OP checked, is entirely the opposite to the reality. Checking for yourself is the ONLY way you can be sure if someone is lying. It's not a nice thought, but its no less true for that.
And most people haven't advised assuming an affair. They've advised based on their experience of the road than can lead to an affair:
Two attractive people who have sparked up a fairly intense friendship with multiple daily messages.
Messaging another person while they are out with your own partner.
Behaviour of a type mutual friends feel they need to comment about.
A gift of a significant sum of money.
If you would do all the above within your relationship and think you'd not crossed a boundary, you're unusual.

Always follow your gut. I personally find no issue with the occasional snoop if your spidey senses are feeling something - it’s literally the way 90% of people fine out their other half is cheating - I think it’s pearl clutchy to care about this tbh! People’s right to know the truth about their life trumps someone’s right to have private Facebook messages.

If advertising algorithms can trawl our messages for key words then the mother of your children should be able to ensure her own peace of mind and security by doing the same if she feels compelled to.

And it was worth it for OP because she uncovered what could very well be the start of an emotional affair and has hopefully shone a light on it and nipped whatever it was in the bud.

I would be very unhappy about this.

if my husband didn’t agree to cut contact and stop messaging her immediately I would be prepared to end the relationship.

But an emotional affair/whiff of cheating is a line for me and my husband knows it. He would feel the same way in reverse

No, this...

He says he was ‘probably’ out of order and will keep what I’ve said in mind but it’s just friendship

...is not that at all. Hell, if I'd said something like that, I'd just be trying to placate somebody who won't accept any of my honest answers and wants to resolve a situation that can't be resolved.

@Suspiciousmind1 you sit him down and you tell him that he is warm, friendly, generous and that you love and trust him BUT this person appears to have developed a crush on him and because she is known for targeting married men, you are very uncomfortable with his friendship with her.

You tell him it isn't that you are worried he will cheat, you are worried she will cross a line and that this will have repercussions within your larger friend group and social settings.

You ask him to dial it back. No more 'random meetings' and that you do not want her around your children. She is behaving in an underhanded way and you don't trust or respect her.

You ask him to be more wary of her and to trust your instincts and that others are now commenting on the 'closeness'.

Its the insinuation that they have a special relationship that is untrustworthy and disrespectful to your marriage.

He probably loves the attention and will send a "my wife says we cant be friends" message making you out to be a bad yin but your gut is right here. She IS targeting him.

Single mum here! What I will say is its likely a one sided crush from his end. I've had this from a dad (family friend through elderly relatives, kids similar ages). I felt crushingly disappointed and almost like I'd been taken advantage of in a way? It's awful when you think you've made a friend but they just see you as some sort of piece of meat. I know his wife and mother ffs.

So the single mum probably just thinks yay I've made a friend and has no idea hes developed a wierd crush/secretive behaviour

Your assertion that now neither can prove the other to be wrong or lying because the OP checked, is entirely the opposite to the reality. Checking for yourself is the ONLY way you can be sure if someone is lying. It's not a nice thought, but its no less true for that.

But she has checked for herself, found nothing, and still believes something is going on.

Which is exactly the whole point I'm trying to make. But...

Two attractive people who have sparked up a fairly intense friendship with multiple daily messages.

...one of whom doesn't find the other attractive.

Messaging another person while they are out with your own partner.

Yep, I've done that (accidentally).

Behaviour of a type mutual friends feel they need to comment about.

Had that happen a couple of times, because they had boring lives and were amusing themselves with ours.

A gift of a significant sum of money.

Yep, done that too. Based on desperate need, and a "pay it forward" deal with somebody else from years earlier.

None of these things so much as raised an eyebrow in my marriage, because we're grown-ass adults who trust each other more than we suspect the intentions of other people.

Nah sorry, I never buy into this 'poor man being chased by a woman who likes to go after married men!'

He's a grown man, he draws a line in it himself. It's nothing to do with her, it's him that's crossing boundaries here.

OP - apologies if this has been mentioned as I've skipped ahead but is it worth having a conversation with your friend? I wonder if she was being vague but guiding the conversation towards this other woman because she knows more but doesn't deliberately want to come out with it?

I'm afraid to say I agree with this.

I think by the time a relationship is in emotional affair territory (which this clearly is), it's curtains. He is effectively prioritising his relationship with her over his relationship with you. Whether or not he's sleeping with her is irrelevant.

You can't stop someone cheating (emotionally or sexually). Being read the riot act by your partner will simply focus your mind on how to better disguise it. In a best case scenario he may stop seeing her for a couple of weeks. But you cannot stop a relationship between two people.

People always come onto these threads and say "nip it in the bud". It doesn't work like that. You can't prevent a relationship which you are not a part of.

What you can do, is leave. And indicate you will never ever be treated like that again.

Leaving (and meaning it) is the only real way to deal with this situation. Leave and don't come back.

I agree with this approach. I would go further and say “apparently there are rumours that you’ve been texting her daily and that you keep sending her selfies”. And watch his reaction/ denial.

@xyxygy did you keep the gifted money a secret from your spouse? Do you send selfies? Do you have a history of sleeping with married men and cheating?

It's great that your marriage is so good but a bit weird to be bragging on this thread.

I've sent selfies as part of long chats, when it was in the spirit of the conversation.

I didn't mention the money until it came up one day, because we have separate finances and a) it was my money to give, b) my responsibility and c) none of my other half's business. I've never slept around, but I have no idea (and don't care) if any of the people either of us are friends with have.

Does that cover it?

@PleaseGoDontGoAgain - Oh, and to answer the last part...no, I'm not bragging about it. I'm saying that all the posts saying that such things are conclusive proof of wrongdoing are nonsense.

I agree with you, well said. I think men in particular are prone to this sort of flattery and will kind of facilitate it whilst telling themselves it's harmless. I have a much older friend who said that for 50 years she has put up with her husband allowing himself to be "taken in" by other females who flatter his ego and I myself have seen him demonstrate this behaviour in his 80's!

@MartiniFlan that is exactly the score. People know they are a bit out of order but who wants to be thought of as a 'bit of a shit' especially when it involved them getting and sending some nice ego boosting banter from an attractive person - the problem is that it can sometimes get out of hand above and beyond the banter - someone I know ended up in an emotional affair they felt they couldn't get out of (when they wanted to) because the other person wouldn't take it well and was likely to blow the whistle- so it carried on and on until one day his wife found out and dumped him anyway

It sounds like an emotional affair to me

@xyxygy Do you think he was likely to say to his wife 'actually I find her extremely attractive'. - I'm sure there are plenty of mumsnetters who were aware of OW- (particularly mutual friends or colleagues) but were told that 'I don't find her attractive' along with various other annoyances.

If you've got a very live and let live kind of relationship then that's fine and dandy - but clearly OP feels very uncomfortable about this and her partners reaction too - as did I- we are indeed all different

He's a hair's breadth away from a full blown affair. And the other woman is very calculating, knows exactly what she's doing. I'd be reading him the riot act.

I don't really understand why you can't just talk to him and express your concerns. You wouldn't even have to mention that you have read his messages, just air your observations and what a close friend has confided. I have confronted my husband about any female friendship I wasn't sure of, usually when I get the impression that he isn't being very transparent about it (he has plenty of close female friends whom I accept he has known for some time, and whilst I don't particularly like all of them, at least I know the situation). For example, I found out that he was meeting a woman quite regularly for drinks and when pressed, he described her as a "good friend". My response was so how come I have never met her and why was she not invited to our wedding? I know that we don't have to report every single thing or friendship to our spouse, but I feel once you have weighed things up in your own mind without rushing to a conclusion and you still have a nagging feeling, then it's reasonable to approach your partner with your concerns, hopefully before it gets to the stage of reading their messages.

I'm ashamed to admit that previously (years ago) I made it a sport/game to try and get married men particularly those much older and not ones I was even attracted to, to enter into these kinds of relationships with me, she's using all the techniques I used so you are right to be concerned.

It made me utterly cringe to read what you had written as I could totally see what was really going on but also see how easily he and she could brush it off and turn it onto you being paranoid etc etc

I really hope this has a positive conclusion for you.

Never ignore your gut instinct on something like this

SM, kudos for tackling this with your H. He and this OW have been building an inappropriate intimacy and emotional reliance that is damaging your marriage. He is now aware of your discomfort, as well as the observations of others. His over-investment has been rumbled.

Don’t feel guilty for investigating their messages. You felt that boundaries were being crossed (they were) and had/have the right to learn the truth for your emotional well-being. Learning about their over-frequent contact was a key piece of the puzzle that signaled this EA.

He doesn’t appear to believe that he might lose you. He didn’t completely come clean or reassure you that he will distance himself from OW. It’s concerning that he only admitted to ‘probably’ being out of order, was ‘funny’ about being completely transparent re their messages, and ‘cherry picked’ what he read aloud. If he were totally remorseful about crossing lines/betraying your trust, he would gladly be an open book.

He is lying that he doesn’t fancy OW. They clearly share both a physical and emotional attraction and are enjoying mutual validation. He is flattered and boosted by her keen interest and attention, and has been transferring his emotional energy from you to her. Until he admits this personal vulnerability, he won’t safeguard his fidelity.

SM, I strongly advise that you both read Not Just Friends by Dr. Shirley Glass. This book will explain exactly what is going on here. I truly hope that H will strengthen his boundaries and distance himself from OW. If he doesn’t, you will need to reevaluate staying in the marriage.

@RoseLee04

I don't really understand why you can't just talk to him and express your concerns.

Because he is clearly going to at best minimise or at worst lie if she does this. She will also have to admit she's read his messages which immediately diminishes her moral authority. And she will have no way of judging from his response whether he's telling the truth or not so she will be back at square one.

Oh, and he will certainly double down on security and secrecy as a result of the conversation so it will be harder in future to establish if he is cheating.

I have no idea why people say "Just talk to him" in these scenarios. Talking to a cheating spouse about their behaviour is a bit like giving a burglar a 10 minute head start to get out of your house. It's so self-evidently not a sensible thing to do.