To ask if you have a problem with the burkini?

[Mvslimah]

Honest answers please

would you give a woman (maybe Muslim maybe Jewish) a wide berth if you saw them wearing a burkini or modest (Ie fully covered) swimsuit at a pool?

if you see a woman wearing one do you give it a second thought or is it just a meh, who cares?

tia

@CampervanKween What ethnicity are you? @RachelGreensHair What ethnicity are you?

I go to a ladies only swimming session and lots of women wear these, or even short wetsuits - doesn't bother me at all. I do hope they don't think less of me in my usual cossie

But in the vast majority of Muslim countries that have a good amount of western tourism, non Muslims aren’t expected to cover up, unless in a place of worship. The only exception I can think of is saudi or iran and i don’t imagine many white British holiday makers heading off to Saudi for some sun

Thanks babe! I’m not south Asian, so I’ve never really ventured on to those boards, don’t want to take up space in a south Asian woman’s space

I don't think that matters either tbh. I mean the butt hanging out look isn't a great look, but it's not my butt so I don't care.People can just live their own lives, wear what they want, for whatever reason, and let others do the same.

1. We like to pretend we are better than those countries. It's a false equivalence.

1. Some of those values are tolerance and liberty /freedom. That is why we don't impose our rules on others. That's why OP wearing what she wants is an expression of those rights and values. You don't get to pick and choose which values should be respected .

Honestly the mental gymnastics are mindboggling!

how is it not controlling, judgemental and ridiculous when Muslim countries enforce such expectations on non-Muslim women?

It is controlling, judgemental and ridiculous. One of our British values is that, unlike the French and the Saudis, we aren't overly prescriptive about what women wear because it's controlling, judgemental and ridiculous. We do better than that.

Does it not occur to you that the people at the pool who were hostile to OP were failing to uphold British values?

That's just as bigoted as the anti Muslim brigade. Why does female empowerment have to mean excessive flesh on show? What's wrong with being curious about what it really means to have choice and agency as a woman? Whether that be under the watchful patriarchal gaze of a religion or the faux liberation of a patriarchal atheist/agnostic consumerist society and everything in between?People, especially women, are fascinating, what is wrong with curiosity?
I think you might have got the wrong end of the stick. I wasn't saying I agree that female empowerment means excessive flesh on show. I was observing that for some people they seem to equate female empowerment with every inch the embodiment of male gaze expectations, which is why so many people seem to to argue that they're empowered and free and liberated by their swimwear choices but women who cover up are oppressed.

I'm all up for curiousity about social structures and their effect on women. It's why I'd say I lean towards radical feminism. It's also why I'm especially curious (and cynical) about ideas of feminism and female empowerment that embody male gaze.

well i think that guy is a Saudi and that video is most likely from prior to 2017 or the attempts to modernise Saudi. This is the kind of video that makes every other Muslim roll their eyes.

about the beating your wife, I can’t see that video it was the same hijab one so I can’t comment but I’m familiar in what he’s talking about. It’s the maximum that a man can go to when arguing his wife, he can hit her with a blade of grass or a napkin.

A few of those muslim countries also ban burkinis from some of their hotel/country club pools - notably Tunisia and Egypt, possibly also Morocco. It's as much a class based decision there as anything - richer locals don't like them, lowers the tone.

@slimeandfearmetro oh 100% yes agree the people at the pool weren't upholding British values at all.
I was pointing out the reason someone else may have mentioned the values. I do agree with what you're saying.

@AngryGreasedSantaCatcus that is my point and you've said it more clearly than I did so I appreciate that.
Exactly as you've said we don't pick and choose which values to uphold, and equally we don't get to pick and choose which values to uphold in countries such as Saudi where I have previously lived.
My point was the difference in what is expected of someone like myself in Saudi compared to if a Saudi woman resides in England. It should be fine for me to uphold my values there in the same way they should be allowed (and are allowed) to uphold theirs over here.

@Mvslimah Saudi is where I'm basing my experience. I lived there myself as a child so my memories are based on that experience.

What are you allowed to hit him with?

@SleepDreamThinkHuge thank you I was not aware of this being the case. I appreciate the correction and that is good to hear. I lived in Saudi for my childhood so my view may be different because of that.
I am so happy to hear this is not the case as broadly as I had thought.

It’s not stated, but given that the statistics for DV are predominantly men as the perpetrators and women as victims these ayat give the absolute maximum that a man can go to under extreme circumstances. This must be viewed in the context of pre Islamic Arabia where violence against women was rife and women were buried alive, beaten to death etc

Ooh where? I lived there too! I lived not too far from dammam, jubail if you’ve heard of it?

but Saudi, as you know was and is still rife with hypocrisy in terms of its royals and government, almost laughably so, so they really shouldn’t be held up as an ideal Muslim society which was the image they tried to portray: They’ve made efforts to modernise, which is why I would visit again so it may not be as you remember it

OP, your experience is just a reminder of how i flexible/racist/xenophobic/intolerant, etc etc, people can be.
I’ve not. one across anyone wearing one in real life but to assume it’s unhygienic?! Wow

I should probably get one. I might swim more often because the pool might not feel as cold.

I probably would prefer seeing a birkini to some two-piece suits but freedom of choice- my body my choice so whatever you choose to wear, go for it.

Why would it bother anyone?

@Mvslimah oh not far from where I was! Safwa. I haven't returned in many, many years now but it is heartening to hear things are improving. How wonderful!

Thank you. My apologies, I completely got the wrong end of the stick. I share your curiosity for both 'male gaze' empowerment and the influence/impact of social structure. My curiosity was not expressed as succinctly or eloquently.

I think it would be fair to say that where I live it’s about a 50/50 split.

I think a lot people see wahhabism (for fellow non-muslims, that's the Saudi state's edition of fundie Islam) and think all muslims must believe that regressive hogwash.

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting I could have been clearer too. Tone of voice is hard to convey on here.

It's such a shame that the OP has been the subject of quite a lot of judgement, from people who are also every bit influenced by patriarchy but blind to it.

wahabism is salafism In the specific Saudi context. Wahab is considered a great but controversial scholar in Islam of the hanbali fiqh what he was ardent against was innovation in the religion, so the infiltration of Arab and south Asian cultural values being passed off as religion. So it’s odd but there are ways that this school of thought or those who follow wahab are more open minded on certain things ie giving religious minorities their rights, women’s rights to sexual pleasure, stamping out forced marriage, stamping out no education for women etc but other ways in which they are ultra ultra conservative the ridiculous emphasis put on what women wear, homophobia, and very rigid gender roles so it’s quite a juxtaposition at times. But Saudi took that next level as there is 0 religious justification for women not driving for instance. But how much the society has changed In such a short period of time shows how it was just a beating stick to keep people in line. My friend lives in Riyadh and they have mixed music festivals now