To ask if you have a problem with the burkini?

[Mvslimah]

Honest answers please

would you give a woman (maybe Muslim maybe Jewish) a wide berth if you saw them wearing a burkini or modest (Ie fully covered) swimsuit at a pool?

if you see a woman wearing one do you give it a second thought or is it just a meh, who cares?

tia

I wonder if any of the posters criticising the term "modest" as implying that mainstream fashion is "immodest" would see the term "plus size" and infer that smaller sizes are somehow "minus size" and get offended at being called "minus"? Or inferred that the non-petite clothes must be "grande" and got offended at being called "big" because that's what "grande" translates to? Because that's how ridiculous you are all being.

Lol exactly! 😆

Btw people, I've just realised you can italicize emojis on here, like: 😑.

You didn't talk about French institutions you talked about 'the French'. This country is guilt of structural and institutional racism too. It doesn't make everyone racist though.

I understand that words do not necessarily translate neatly from one language to another. That's not really a good reason to keep using a word that was defined by men and is steeped in judgement and which others have told you is offensive. To push that as the narrative, given the definition of modesty it to endorse the policing of womens bodies IMO.

I was not clear in how I posed the questions I wonder about when I think about choice for women in the context of religion. They are not the sum of my questions just an example of the things I wonder. Only the question on wills was specific to Islam. The question on contraception and abortion was a question for Catholicism. The question on head covering /clothing was for religions like the Plymouth Brethren etc. The divorce question was relevant to Judaism. People often focus on Islam. I believe there are questions to be asked in the majority of organised religions.

In respect of inheritance, whilst I appreciate that you say a woman is not supposed to spend a money on anyone other than herself. Well that justifies the in heritance rules doesn't it? Where does that money come from? If her husband dies, would a woman chose to give their sons, twice that of her daughters. Would she really 'choose' to give her parents in-law a chunk of their estate which is more than she will receive?

Revealing clothes are seen as the norm. How are people complaining as if they're oppressed? Nobody looks at you funny for wearing shorts in the uk, please get over yourselves. It's well accepted. If others want to describe their clothes as modest they can. They don't need to call it conservative or full coverage to appease anyone else's paranoia.

I wear both modest and more revealing clothes, depending on the day. Not an issue. Nobody in the UK or anywhere in europe cares or thinks shorts/bikinis and such are immodest. It is the norm.

Maybe I should start a new thread on ama about it because it is complicated, if a woman is a widow and his parents are dead then she gets 1/4 and the children the rest, but she would keep and invest the money to the children and give it them when they are of age, she’d also be encouraged to remarry and then that husband would provide for her and her children (in a traditional perfect Islamic society, which we know doesn’t exist so like Hudud the rules become murky) but there is an understanding that the parents if they are still alive would be taken care of, especially if they are elderly, as that child might have been supporting them

^ je suis française, im french of course all french people arent racist, I was a teacher and the other teachers were outraged that religion was banned in schools but Christianity was forced through teaching the bible as a text or book rather than as a religious one-

You talked about 'the French' not institutional racism, as you know there is very distinct difference. You choose to use the word modest and are cognisant of the impact of that word. Modest is a word steeped in judgment, and therefore you endorse the policing of women's bodies. This is isn't about Burkinis, it's propaganda.

Are you are really telling me that in return for only have to spend money on herself whilst her husband is alive, she willing chooses on his death that their son will inherit twice that of any daughters, and that his parents will inherit a larger portion than her?

For clarity the question on abortion/ contraception aimed at Catholiscism.
Head covering / dress - Plymouth Bretheran
Divorce - Judaism
Inheritance - Islam.

I wonder about female choice in ALL religions. My questions are less about oppression and more about agency.

@Mvslimah I thought I lost my last post and rewrote a shorter version. Ignore this

It's like black people get pressured to have their hair look tidy,neat ,nice aka not in it's natural state.

A common theme in the misfortune of women is men, whether that be in the family, education, work, religion or leisure. Not all men, but a significant number of the men in power.

No, i dont because it is a term used by an entire fashion industry. Are you triggered by skiing fit clothes?

also no because whilst he is alive she doesn’t have to spend a penny on herself, he is to do that. Now she can if she wants to, her money is hers but she is not obliged to spend on the household, him or even buy her own clothes, haircuts, food, days out it’s all on the husband. I think his parents actually get 1/6th. She gets 1/4 and his children the rest I believe and that is because Islamically a woman does not need to provide for herself or her children.

You mean anglicised. An afro puff is neat, as are plaits or an afro, they will not necessarily be considered professional. Professional mean anglicised.

@NatashaDancing nah, that's just skirting around the issue. Are you going to stop shopping at shops like M&S and Next?
Shops that require you to use the word modest to find what you are looking for if you are of a particular religious background or just want /need that style of clothing.

Change won't happen by bullying and forcing one muslim woman to bow down to your demands and insisting she changes.

Exactly! Black women are pressured to hide their blackness as to not make society feel uncomfortable. Black women have lost their jobs or been denied opportunities for having their natural hair… awful.

‘almost British but not quite, almost British just not white’

My questions are not about clothing per se. I am not triggered by clothing, you do you. I am more interested in the relationship between women, religion and choice.

A woman spending money on herself is a straw man argument. How many women would really choose to only have 1/4 of their family estate? Why is this not 50/50, eg at least 50% in trust to share amongst the children equally. Why is a Y chromosome worth double an X in monetary terms? Why do his parents get 16th? I am genuinely curious as to how this reconciles with women having agency and value

I consider Islam no better or worse than any other organised religion. I just think they all have questions to answer.

I restate my earlier point about how the humane actions is to accommodate other people's clothing etc as long.as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others. Muslim women should not have to choose between covering up and going swimming because the burkini doesn't infringe upon the rights of others. Black women shouldn't have to use corrosive chemicals and 200 celsius straighteners on their hair just to get a job or go to school because afro hair doesn't infringe upon the rights of others.

So sorry you had a bad experience, @Mvslimah. To anwer your question in your OP, no, it wouldn't bother me at all and I feel quite furious at the tutting wankers headshakers who made you feel uncomfrotable. What is WRONG with people?
Just the other day, there was a Muslim woman in my gym pool wearing a burkini-type swimwear covering. She was very young (about 20) and she was with an equally young non-Muslim woman who was wearing ordinary swimwear. They looked very sweet together and no-one turned a hair.
I do know from experience, though, that there are a couple of gym members that I would have expected to tut if they had been there. Not specifically from racism or Islamophobia (though I woldn't put that past them) but from a generally officious attitude that makes them feel like they have to police other gym users and invent spurious reasons for finding other people's behaviour unacceptable.
Like the woman who complained that a girl was using the jacuzzi when she was very slightly under the minimum age for it. The girl was creating ZERO problems and her mum explained that she had autism, and had been given permission by the management to use the jacuzzi because this was what she needed in order for the pool area to be a positive experience for her.
THe complaining woman was an absolute wanker and went on and on,despite the reassurance that the girl had permission. She tried to drag me into it and I politiely told her she was creating a problem about nothing. but I didn't do what I should have done - which was to tell her to shut the fuck up and threaten her with a complaint to the management. I feel ashamed about that because I never saw that girl and her mum at the pool again and I wonder if my lack of adequate support made things worse for them.

You should then know how hard it is for a divorced or widowed Muslim woman to remarry a good man . Many only want never married.

There is that problem again. Men.

Which is why I caveated some of my replies to this question with in a perfect Islamic society which we know doesn’t exist and the reason I did that was because some people are backward and this preoccupation with virgins or unmarried women is pervasive. Saying that I know many remarried divorcés and it is actually a sunnah

I don’t really see the comparison between a burkini and Afro hair. I saw a woman in a burkini in my pool yesterday. I did look at her because it looks so uncomfortable. It was loose and seemed to be hanging off her. I suppose tight clothing like wet suits are not permitted. It looked really restrictive and I felt sorry for her. Bet her DH didn’t wear one!

They aren’t a direct comparison but I think it’s more they are markers of being different or an other

@Mvslimah I disagree. I think it’s different to feel that is wrong for women and girls having to cover themselves from top to toe. To never feel the sun or the breeze on their skin at least in public. Having to swim in a burkini or sit covered in back on a beach in the heat.

‘Because it goes against the values of most people in this country such as freedom, liberty, equality and tolerance. All the things that make it a wonderful place for a woman to be here.’

You think the UK is a ‘wonderful place’ to be a woman? No sexism, no gender pay gap? No issues with women expecting to be attractive, shave everywhere etc? Oversexualised clothes for young girls? Lack of promotions for women? Poor maternity care? Poor health care in general? Work-life balance issues? DV? Sarah Everard and all the similar cases?

Glad you think it’s so great. But just because we have it better than women in some parts of the world, does not mean we don’t have far to go still.

‘Modest’ is a marketing term for these clothes. I am not sure it’s fair to blame the OP solely for this. I get the objection but a whole different remarketing would need to happen to change this.