To ask if you have a problem with the burkini?

[Mvslimah]

Honest answers please

would you give a woman (maybe Muslim maybe Jewish) a wide berth if you saw them wearing a burkini or modest (Ie fully covered) swimsuit at a pool?

if you see a woman wearing one do you give it a second thought or is it just a meh, who cares?

tia

@Mvslimah they are totally normal round here, it wouldn’t even register. Close fitting leggings and long sleeved top basically.

If I do think about it I think I wouldn’t want to wear the top because I hate the feeling of wet fabric on my arms… but weirdly I’m fine with it on my legs- I wear full length or 3 quarters leggings for wild/sea swimming all the time because it’s more convenient.

The only time I ever thought anything else was a family where the man was in speedo briefs but all the women/little girls were in massive baggy suits with long tunics over baggy trousers at a water park and they were getting caught up in everything, dragging the little ones down because they were so heavy and they were all constantly trying to pull them up/straight/un tangle them, while the man was happy as Larry swimming around. That felt unfair, especially on the children.

In answer to your question - no I wouldn't buy anything marketed as "modest".

Wouldn't bother me at all. I would probably notice as I don't live in a particularly diverse area so she would stand out as unusual, but I wouldn't give it any further thought.

Sorry if I offended. I think introducing new words is better as they don’t have all the baggage that the existing ones do.

I dislike the word modest in relation to clothing, and it is never applied to men’s clothes shops, as there is an implied virtue (and lack). But is haya clothing makes no sense then that isn’t a suitable alternative.

Full coverage, seems to cover it. No virtue words, just a simple description.

As I said earlier, I have no problems with what you choose to wear to go swimming. I wear a rash vest and shorts in the summer as I burn but a normal costume in an inside pool.

I will be honest, OP.

It makes me feel sad when I see women being held to different standards of modesty to men.

In certain parts of the world I've seen families on the beach where the man and children are wearing normal swimwear and enjoying the sun, and the woman is covered from head to toe. It makes me feel sad for her that she is expected to do this when her husband is not, and sad for her daughters that this is their future.

But if I saw you wearing a burkini at the swimming pool I would be glad that you had found a way to make swimming accessible to you, and I certainly wouldn't say anything or give you any funny looks.

But you or the other insisting we refer to what the industry refers to as modest clothes, as haya clothes and insisting we introduce more Islamic words to the English vernacular when the ones that are already common place aren’t even used correctly is irksome. It might not have baggage for you, but what about us! Not only does it not make sense but it’s yet another Islamic concept that can be misused on the regular and then used against us

But you don't know do you?

I was having a conversation with a couple of students, originally from Kosovo nd a colleague, my colleague, who happened to be Muslim said something and I reacted with, "These are good Muslim girls girls" and totally shocked my colleague.

The students always wore trousers but never headscarves. Incidentally that is exactly what this colleague wore.

@Mvslimah

I've had some interesting discussions with students about the term 'modest'. I never saw either of my grandmothers in trousers because they were brought up in a time when 'nice' girls didn't wear trousers unless you were in uniform in the war.

Even then most uniforms were skirts, female pilots were initially not allowed to wear trousers and only won the concession if they changed as soon as they got into the airstrip buildings.

I am so wrapped up in my own problems, I would bet my house that I wouldn’t notice if they were naked.

If this is true (and I suspect it isn't), you'd be a danger to yourself and others in the water 😂

Of course I notice it... things that go through my head: Is she hot? Is she happy to wear it? Maybe I should get one...? it must be great to be covered up (I burn really easily and have a body I don't really want to show off). Then I go and get an ice cream.

@NatashaDancing if you're so opposed to the word and the weight it carries then you should avoid those shops completely and /or write to them and campaign for a change of language.You know the shops that advertise and make it easy and mainstream to search for and use the term modest/modesty clothing.

I know, it's easier to badger the OP instead and have HER change the way way she speaks and translates things. Inconvenience HER and limit her easy ways out.

Rather hypocritical. I wouldn't shop somewhere that uses language that I find so offensive and upsetting/triggering.

What do you mean, I don't know, @sashh ?
I know girls are Muslim because of what they wear. The Muslim boys wear the regular uniform. Now that uniform, if immodest for girls, is surely the same for boys? But it's not

This^

Because the modesty requirements are different for a man that woman Islamically, largely just through some form of head covering. And that’s the point, you are meant to recognise Muslim women. Identity politics are Quranically cited as the reason to ‘draw your khimar (veil ) across your chest’. Muslim men should also be identifiable through a beard and trimmed moustache and non figure hugging clothing that covers from the navel to the knee

@NatashaDancing I came here to write the exact same thing. 'Modest' is a provocative word in the context of the rights of women, which we are still fighting for. @Mvslimah You have been patient and taken the time to respond to many poster's questions, to explain and normalise the burkini. I see stereotypes from both sides of the debate on this thread. Oppressed, uneducated women vs alcoholic, druggie western girl ( who find peace and a home in warmth of Islam. Both are clichés, .

I am struggling with your posts. They seem less about the burkini and more about the normalising of the policing of women. The burqini and any other religion endorsed/encouraged styles of dressing are much more complicated and nuanced than that 'its just an item of clothing'. You should be able to enjoy the pool in peace with your family without judgement or scrutiny. Its interesting though, you have been very judgemental about the French and the choices they make for their country.

Do women really choose or is it the illusion of choice? Religion (Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism etc) has many positive and beneficial attributes but it is ultimately organised by people, usually men. The positive attributes are often outweighed by the patriarchal nature of an organised structure which often relegates women to supporting roles in their own lives. Would a woman really choose to allow her son to inherit more than her daughter, just by virtue of having a Y chromosome? For her daughter not be be able to have access to contraception or a safe abortion? To wait for man to give them permission to divorce? To cover their heads or from head to toe? These are questions I have when I think about all the various religions.

Racking my brains as hard as possible I really cannot fathom how a pair of swim leggings and swim t shirt made from swimwear material can be more unhygienic than wearing a swim suit or bikini made from the same material.

But I am french, well half french and I lived a good portion of my life there, I can tell you that it is institutional racism under the guise of la laïcité, or the guise of ‘hygiene’ or la santé publique or whatever. I lived in val d’Oise, so a banlieues to the north of Paris comprised of zeps (zone d’éducation primaire) aka ghettos and then more affluent areas, in the difference with how Muslims are treated is palpable. The capital of my préfecture is Argenteuil, where a pregnant woman who covered was physically targeted and the baby kicked to death and her put in ITU because of how she dressed. We left France because of how difficult it is to be a Muslim there.

you don’t understand fiqh but you seem to have some ill conceived notions about certain things (precisely why I’m not keen on adding more Islamic words to the English vernacular). Inheritance in Islam is under the guise that a woman never has to spend a penny on anyone other than herself, if that is not the case then the ruling is void, contraception is permissible, abortion up until 4/5 months is permissible (unless there is a danger to mothers life and then it is permissible at any stage) women don’t need permission to divorce, there are different process between a talaq (male instigated divorce) and khula (womens instigated divorce). Men are meant to cover their bodies too.

im not sure what I’ve said that means i police other people’s bodies have or that it should be normalised. It most definitely shouldn’t on either side of the fence, wear what you feel happy and comfortable and beautiful in, that will mean different things for different people and different phases in their lives. No choice is a free choice, they are all informed by things, trend, culture, personal sensibilities etc

The OP has been given alternative language to describe the style of clothing, yet she continues to insist there is no alternative to the word "modest". The OP is very keen that her sensibilities be respected but seems uninterested in any other.

The hygiene argument is nonsense.

I suppose it might make some sort of sense that men's swimshorts might be worn as non swimwear but in the context of a swimming pool I doubt anyone turns up wearing their shorts as every day outerwear and goes straight into the pool.

because it doesn’t make sense… haya clothing doesn’t make sense. The clothes are marketed as modest clothes it is how they are branded. Full coverage clothes doesn’t necessarily reflect them, Islamic clothes doesn’t either. You seem ardent on blaming me for an entire industry. On this thread I’ll oblige but that doesn’t change the industry, or how even other people commonly understand a more conservative personal style that doesn’t show too much of one’s body.

^ there is also a huge amount of pressure on Muslims not to be too Muslimy, we can a little bit not too much or it looks like we don’t respect British values or we might draw too much attention to ourselves or might upset someone, and frankly most of us as sick of it.

a quote from the great Homi Bhabha comes to mind

Firstly, I’m so sorry you experienced such ignorance @Mvslimah (on this thread as well as at the pool). Why anyone would hassle a woman on day out with her kids is beyond me and I hope it’s not put you off!

Secondly, that kaftan/outfit is sooo chic 😍 picturing it with a big slouchy leather bag and oversized sunnies.

toddles off to peruse Lyra

None of this appalling treatment of Iranian and Afghan women is caused by women wearing full coverage swimwear. None of it will be stopped by the OP turning up at the pool tomorrow in a string bikini.

As for women not shaving their legs - at most they might get an odd look.

I got bullied at school by the boys for not shaving. You can't actually know how other people behave so stop pretending that you can predict how they will react in a given situation.

All this debating over how one woman uses the word 'modest'.
Yet the next time she needs to buy one she will still need to put the term in Google to get the best results, even from mainstream places.

That’s precisely my point. There is an entire industry built around this term, with a Fashion week, section on uk highstreet stores, on shein, on Amazon, on asos, on Pinterest , IG etc etc I could do on

it’s what I’ll need to type when I buy my holiday clothes, or else nothing will come up along the lines of what I’m after. It’s like being triggered by the term skinny fit because it inadvertently implies only thin people can wear it.

ps if anyone has seen any nice summer dresses with all the relevant parts covered but don’t look like curtains or if they are a sweat trap, feel free to post a link… ill be eternally grateful

“Modest Fashion” as a concept has been around for a while now and it mostly caters for Muslim, Jewish and Christian women who wish to adhere to such a dress code. Several online stores have modest fashion section. It’s simply a descriptor and op used it appropriately. She has not once implied that women who do not wear burkinis are immodest or inferior, you have inferred that @NatashaDancing.

I also find your persistent attempts to police op’s perfectly reasonable language, hugely uncomfortable and bordering on bullying. Do you really think it’s fair or feminist to berate a single Muslim woman for the ills of Iranian and Afghan society, and use it as a stick to beat her with?