To ask if you have a problem with the burkini?

[Mvslimah]

Honest answers please

would you give a woman (maybe Muslim maybe Jewish) a wide berth if you saw them wearing a burkini or modest (Ie fully covered) swimsuit at a pool?

if you see a woman wearing one do you give it a second thought or is it just a meh, who cares?

tia

OP you keep saying that the word modest shouldn't be offensive and that people are wrong to believe it is offensive.

People have explained why they find it offensive in a number of ways. They've done so repeatedly.

I think if we are all keen to be tolerant of one another and respectful, that needs to work both ways and simply telling people they are in the wrong to find a term offensive isn't really on.

You've said that it's not a direct translation to the English language meaning of 'modest' but have continued to use it rather than the alternative wording you yourself used to explain why you don't feel the word modest should offend women.

Why not adapt your language so it is less likely to offend, in the spirit of tolerance and respect?

If a group of Muslim women found a term I used offensive, I can't imagine just flat out telling them they're wrong repeatedly. I would listen, take their response on board and adapt my language to use other wording that still makes sense to me but isn't offensive. We know that wording exists because you used it to explain why you don't believe modest should offend people.

Something to think about.

as someone who wears modest swimwear - if DH told me to cover up I’d be booking a flight to the nearest nudist beach

I would probably notice someone wearing it, but I don't have a problem with it.

yes OP I said the Asian women with the least choice were from certain social groups but that takes me full circle to my disquiet with one woman’s choice (such as free choice is …) to wear a garment that is also used to oppress some women within the same religious community in this country and is forced at pain of death on other women from the same religious community but who live in other countries. I still support your choice, as I do that of my friends, I even understand what my friends say about why they have adopted more conservative forms of dress but I don’t like what else they symbolise.

It is a style of address that you find appropriate individually to your culture or faith.

What OP may find modest is not everyone's interpretation.

We just need to accept that rather than fight over the word modest.

What's wrong with 'immodest', anyway?

Plenty of people enjoy wearing immodest clothing in situations where they consider it would be appropriate.

I tried on a beautiful frock the other day, but rejected it because it was too modest. I wanted something with a lower neckline and closer-fitted on the waist to show off my curves. In other words, I wanted something less demure, more immodest.

You don't go into church in a bikini, because that would be immodest by the standards of the religion. You don't go into work in a bikini, because that would be inappropriate by the standards of office work. In both cases the inappropriateness is about how much flesh is bared, just that one situation labels it as an issue of modesty. Yet it's the same thing.

ive used it in response to questions asked and it is how the swim wear is referred to.

what about freedom of speech? Freedom to offend, I often see that on threads about Muslims, we should be able to mock our prophet and beliefs
, draw cartoons, burn Qurans because freedom of thought means freedom to offend. Only works one way I suppose but I’ll use fully covered in this instance

I prefer 'modest' swimwear for myself.
It gives me confidence.

I want to enjoy swimming without my own insecurities taking away that joy.

Sorry OP - in my area the Muslim community is largely Asian. The girls and women I spoke about are Asian Muslims though I suspect the social divide is reflected across most UK Muslim communities.

But for what it’s worth I’m sorry if anyone found my use of the term modest offensive or like it made a value judgement about them and their worth. Simply put it’s easier to use it as everyone seems to know what it means

I'm another who finds the word modest offensive. Use the word "haya" instead. People can cope with learning new words. The clothing equivalent of halal.

In English modest implies virtue and also clothes can be immodest. That is deeply offensive.

I wouldn't stare or make comments but, being honest, it makes me feel a bit sad that the woman need to cover up (whether through their choice or their religion).

Similarly, I saw a girl under 10 wearing a long black robe on a sweltering day at Thorpe Park while her school friends were in shorts and T-shirts. They were running around on the climbing frame and she looked hampered by her outfit.

I feel the same when my SIL covers up to come to our house (she and my brother are Muslim) when it's just me and my school aged kids. I'm all for personal freedom but it does make me feel a bit uncomfortable.

what about freedom of speech? Freedom to offend, I often see that on threads about Muslims, we should be able to mock our prophet and beliefs , draw cartoons, burn Qurans because freedom of thought means freedom to offend. Only works one way I suppose but I’ll use fully covered in this instance

And that would be hypocritical if the same people saying those things on those threads were the ones saying they find the word modest in this context offensive, absolutely.

But actually I'm sure that like me, some or many of the people saying that are actually also ones who would discourage others from saying such things.

My post was respectful and measured but your response was quite sarcastic, I'm not sure why tbh.

But yeah I think fully covered is a more respectful term for all the reasons people shared on this thread when discussing why the word modest can be offensive to some. Or 'haya' as you've explained that term now and it makes sense to me plus I've learned something.

If I saw someone in a burkini, I'd think they want to continue to dress modestly but still enjoy life and do the things they enjoy.

Nothing wrong with that at all, it's great that Muslim women can still go swimming and respect their faith.

To be fair. That is how this swimwear is marketed so OP did not chose the word, the market did.

I would google modest swimwear when I buy swimwear for reasons given above.

I wear for choice to give me confidence so I can enjoy swimming. I dont want my own insecurities to take away that joy of myself in the open water.

But for what it’s worth I’m sorry if anyone found my use of the term modest offensive or like it made a value judgement about them and their worth. Simply put it’s easier to use it as everyone seems to know what it means

Cross posted and just saw this.

Appreciate you saying this.

Fully covered is definitely a better term IMO as it's much clearer and doesn't have room for anyone to project a perceived value judgement onto the phrase.

And re the phrase 'modest swimwear', while almost everyone my age (30s) would know what it meant I don't think that's as true of older age groups as it hasn't been a concept as visible to shoppers / in the press for that long in the grand scheme.

Anyway, thanks for reconsidering your language it's appreciated and I think useful to be respectful from both sides as I said.

It's interesting the interpretatations of modest and I suspect it is a trnslation thing. As a white British woman I use the word modest most often on its wider sense to mean plain, inexpensive, small - eg a modest celebration or a modest buffet.

Clothing wise I am more likely to use the word "appropriate". For example I don't think it is appropriate to wear revealing clothes at work or to a formal wedding.

It’s not the clothing equivalent of halal…that’s actually offensive to me. fully coverage clothes (trying to avoid the term modest) are halal clothes or a halal outfit…

as a Muslim I’m not keen on introducing more Arabic or Islamic words to the English vernacular that will get misunderstood. Haya doesn’t refer to clothes, it’s basically a state of being that encompasses many parts.

I am so wrapped up in my own problems, I would bet my house that I wouldn’t notice if they were naked.

And if I did notice, I don’t give a shit what anyone else wants to wear.

Also haya clothes makes no sense

I presume you don't shop at M&S ,Next etc then? Since they have specific modest sections? In fact when searching for fully covered swimsuits there were two issues 1.not all of them were what OP would actually need and 2.the names in the shops (like next for example) actually said modest/modesty swimsuit.

So don't badger OP for being offensive if you're not prepared to boycott all the shops that are using it . They do more to promote the term than religious women ever will.

I really like them. I've worn the 3/4 ones or short suits to a pool plenty of times, very comfortable and no pulling it out of your bum every 5 minutes

Also haya clothes makes no sense

Apologies I think a few of us misunderstood, while trying to be respectful and open to learning. Hopefully that was taken in the spirit it was intended.

Yes but this is the problem, halal and hijab are used frequently now in the English vernacular, but seldom in the correct context and often as a bit of a beating stick against Muslims. Conservative clothes or fully covered dresses and the like are marketed as modest, im sorry that offends you but I genuinely can’t think of another word in English that could adequately define them, because it’s not conservative because that to me implies no patterns or more of the jilbab style of clothes or older lady conservative Margaret thatcher clothes, it won’t be Islamic clothes or Jewish clothes as that alienates everyone else
as a Muslim in the UK I feel like I’m constantly having to either justify, apologise or just be on edge to not offend someone by my just being

But a willingness to learn is always appreciated so long as it’s not rooted in judgement :)