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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

I am indifferent to the Monarchy but AIBU to think it all feels very weird and drab?

404 replies

PipinwasAuntieMabelsdog · 06/05/2023 10:53

Claire Balding's (love CB btw) is trying very hard to say how 'joyful' it feels and is a special day but it just doesn't seem like usual royal events to me. Just feels very flat. Maybe it's the greyish weather. AIBU?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
28
treneton · 08/05/2023 17:09

Lapun · 08/05/2023 16:28

Nothing better to do than tell us that you do not support the Monarchy. Why dont you tell ud who should be President instead of having a King? Great examples in Biden, Trump and Macron?

Zelenskiy ?

Mimosa08 · 08/05/2023 17:51

I didn't watch (am a republican) but the unavoidable news "highlights" made me think...

This man has waited 50 years for his "hereditary" crown and to become fidei defensor and he looked utterly bored and like he was about to have toddler like tantrum any moment.

The ranting/complaining in the state coach was funny in a dreadful way.

It was all odd and utterly irrelevant in the 21st century.

Cringefest.

It won't be long until the leaked stories and attacks on their majesties start from Kensington Palace...they are all so fucked up.

Twentyfirstcenturymumma · 08/05/2023 18:01

'Boris was head of government only. The head of state and sovereign in the UK is the monarch.'

Not quite sure what point you're making tbh, seems to be exactly the same as the point I was making with a tad more political detail thrown in.
An unelected head of state can be a Good Thing is the point I was making. That's all 🤷‍♀️

drinkeatsmile · 08/05/2023 18:30

Twentyfirstcenturymumma · 08/05/2023 18:01

'Boris was head of government only. The head of state and sovereign in the UK is the monarch.'

Not quite sure what point you're making tbh, seems to be exactly the same as the point I was making with a tad more political detail thrown in.
An unelected head of state can be a Good Thing is the point I was making. That's all 🤷‍♀️

Apologies that was not my point. I'll be clearer - Ineffective, useless, powerless, no point...GET RID! No need for someone who can and will do bugger all. Waste of money.

mathanxiety · 08/05/2023 18:40

Twentyfirstcenturymumma · 08/05/2023 16:50

@WhiskersPete and others:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/863893/support-for-the-monarchy-in-britain-by-age/

Note the number don't knows in the stats breakdowns.

Elected heads of State... erm let's think: even recent history
i.e. WW2 onwards... Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Putin, Ethnic cleansing in Bosnia Herzegovina, Putin; less extreme but perhaps a tad unhinged: Trump, Johnson, Truss.... further East... hmm... where to begin ?9/11; Afghanistan, Ukraine, South Sudan.

By all accounts our unelected monarchs provide a good sounding board of checks and balances for many of our own former prime ministers' more outlandish ideas.

Worth reading some biographies and autobiographies of former pm's.

Interesting that the largest level of support for an elected head of state is amongst the youngest cohort in the stats, see link, some of whom may not even have great great, or great great great grandparents who lived or died during WW2 and who suffered countless losses of all sorts.

Memories are short, history teaching has changed...

It would make more sense to choose an example of an elected head of state from a parliamentary democracy. Most of the individuals you give come from political traditions that differ greatly from those of the UK.

You don't have to look too far west to find a pertinent example of a parliamentary democracy electing a head of state. Ireland elects a president every seven years, and the office is run on a small budget. The current popular incumbent is on his second term.

Unlike the British monarch, the Irish president performs a real role when it comes to providing checks and balances. Legislation like the recent UK policing bill would likely not have been signed by Michael D. Higgins, because one of his roles is to consult with the Council of State and question the constitutionality of legislation that arrives on his desk.

Livingtothefull · 08/05/2023 19:57

mathanxiety · 08/05/2023 18:40

It would make more sense to choose an example of an elected head of state from a parliamentary democracy. Most of the individuals you give come from political traditions that differ greatly from those of the UK.

You don't have to look too far west to find a pertinent example of a parliamentary democracy electing a head of state. Ireland elects a president every seven years, and the office is run on a small budget. The current popular incumbent is on his second term.

Unlike the British monarch, the Irish president performs a real role when it comes to providing checks and balances. Legislation like the recent UK policing bill would likely not have been signed by Michael D. Higgins, because one of his roles is to consult with the Council of State and question the constitutionality of legislation that arrives on his desk.

100%. The monarch provides no checks and balances under the current system which would be possible with an elected head of state and a written constitution which the HoS would be required to uphold. That was proven when the late QE2 either failed to or was powerless to prevent the unlawful prorogation of Parliament a few years ago.

I am not just indifferent to, I am positively against the institution of the monarchy. This country desperately needs constitutional reform.

Lapun · 08/05/2023 21:54

You can wish but it will not happen in the foreseeable future. You are in a very small minority in England at least. I hesitate to include Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales as I am English.

drinkeatsmile · 08/05/2023 23:07

Lapun · 08/05/2023 21:54

You can wish but it will not happen in the foreseeable future. You are in a very small minority in England at least. I hesitate to include Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales as I am English.

Who is in a very small minority - give us some facts - if you have some?

DownNative · 08/05/2023 23:21

Livingtothefull · 08/05/2023 19:57

100%. The monarch provides no checks and balances under the current system which would be possible with an elected head of state and a written constitution which the HoS would be required to uphold. That was proven when the late QE2 either failed to or was powerless to prevent the unlawful prorogation of Parliament a few years ago.

I am not just indifferent to, I am positively against the institution of the monarchy. This country desperately needs constitutional reform.

On the contrary, there was no need for the late Queen Elizabeth II to do anything about it because we have the UK Supreme Court which rules on constitutional issues brought before it.

From Politics Review Volume 29, Number 2, November 2019:

"The creation of the Supreme Court was designed to protect the separation of powers within the UK political system. Until the Constitutional Reform Act of 2005 and the creation of the Supreme Court in 2009, the Law Lords in the House of Lords was the highest court in the country. This was referred to as the fusion of powers."

And:

"Due to the uncodified and evolutionary nature of the British constitution, the separation of powers did not exist in the same way, with members of the judiciary (the Law Lords) sitting in the legislature. The change was triggered not due to accusations of corruption within the Lords, but due to a desire to modernise the judiciary and to bring Britain in line with most modern democracies."

In the final analysis, the separation of powers is protected and the system worked. The Supreme Court ruled the Prorogation Of Parliament as illegal.

The Queen knew what she was doing. To refuse any Prime Minister was to set herself in the middle of a power struggle between Parliament and the Prime Minister. Constitutional Law scholars believe this would have resulted in a bigger constitutional issue than Brexit has been.

The Queen wisely avoided that problem knowing the Supreme Court is there as the final arbiter on constitutional issues. In such a situation, the Monarch need not act or appear to subvert the Government.

If we didn't have a UK Supreme Court, you would no doubt have had a point and it would have created a massive constitutional crisis. Just as well we already had one!

As for the Irish President, they have the following limited powers:

the right to refuse a dissolution of the Dail where the Taoiseach "has ceased to retain the support of a majority in Dail Eireann";

the right to refer Bills to the Supreme Court to test their constitutionality;

the right to refer Bills containing matters of national importance if a majority of the Seanad and one-third of the Dail present a joint petition to this effect;

the right to address the Houses of the Oireachtas and the Nation (the text of any such address must have received the prior approval of the Government);

the right to assist in resolving a conflict between the Dail and the Seanad regarding what constitutes a Money Bill;

the President's assent is necessary to the abridgment of time for the consideration of a Bill by the Seanad.

However, the reality is that "most of these powers have never been invoked and only the right to refer Bills to the Supreme Court has been exercised with any frequency (12 times in all)."

In terms of the British Monarch, their powers as follows:

"....main functions as head of state are to appoint the Prime Minister, and all the other ministers; to open new sessions of parliament; and to give royal assent to bills passed by parliament, signifying that they have become law...

The King also chairs monthly meetings of the Privy Council, to approve Orders in Council; he receives incoming and outgoing ambassadors; he makes a host of other appointments, such as the senior judges, but in all this he acts on the advice of the government. He has a weekly audience with the Prime Minister, and receives daily boxes of state papers for his signature, and for information. He also has regular meetings with senior officials of all kinds. "

But the role we most often see the Monarch in is their role as Head Of The Nation. Main functions:

"....the Sovereign acts as a focus for national identity, unity and pride; gives a sense of stability and continuity; officially recognises success and excellence; and supports the ideal of voluntary service. This role has been fulfilled through speeches such as the Queen's address to the nation at the start of the Covid pandemic, and annual broadcast on Christmas day; through giving honours to recognise public and voluntary service; and through visits to the armed forces, schools, hospitals, charities and local organisations.

The Queen carried out just under 300 public engagements in 2019, and Prince Charles 520; but in total 15 members of the royal family carried out 3,567 such engagements. These include national occasions such as attending the Cenotaph for Remembrance Day, or the Trooping The Colour; but the majority are visits to all parts of the UK, to recognise and support the work of local public services and voluntary organisations. The King and other members of the royal family are patrons of over 1000 charities and organisations in the UK and the Commonwealth."

www.ucl.ac.uk/constitution-unit/explainers/what-role-monarchy

The Royal website states "The Sovereign no longer has a political or executive role, he or she continues to play an important part in the life of the nation."

And this in addition to the above can be seen in the UK's rankings in the Global Soft Power list where we're second only to the USA. The Republic of Ireland, on the other hand, is still just about in the top 30.

Overall, the Irish President and the British Monarch are very much ceremonial roles. You most often see them in their respective roles as Head Of The Nation. They're not all that dissimilar in practice and both have some political involvement in different ways.

But it is not their main roles - their ceremonial Head Of The Nation role is. So, this is not really an argument for the abolition of the Monarchy. If we want the King to have the power to personally refer Bills to the Supreme Court, we could do that. But we've no real need to. The system itself works as the Supreme Court proved.

The King reigns, but does not rule. The same could be said of the Irish President.

Lapun · 08/05/2023 23:39

This reply is a tour de force and tells us the whole situation. Thank you

GillianCarole · 09/05/2023 01:00

Likewise you had the option of not watching it, then you could have saved your breath!

GillianCarole · 09/05/2023 01:05

Exactly - who wants a boring politician as Head of State? No history or tradition, all they care about are votes.

CabbagePatchDole · 09/05/2023 01:26

Elizabeth’s coronation was quite glamorous because she was so young and beautiful. She wore an amazing gown as did her ladies in waiting. These two are past it even though in my opinion Camilla looks great for their age. Even Kate didn’t dazzle for once. That awful gown. She looked as though she’d had a row with her husband and been crying all night. Ed Ed perhaps? I didn’t watch it be suze I don’t support the monarchy but even the photos are boring.

I didn’t watch the concert either. People tell me it was good but you can hardly say that it displayed the best of British talent.

the monarchy is clapped out, outdated and perhaps they know it.

Glitterblue · 09/05/2023 01:29

vera99 · 06/05/2023 13:10

Hardly anybody there in the so-called crowds. Real shocker.

What were you watching?! There were plenty crowds, my friend was there and she said people were camping out for days and lots arrived in very early morning and it was packed!

Glitterblue · 09/05/2023 01:34

GillianCarole · 07/05/2023 20:48

So many whingers - no-one forced you to watch it. Haven't you anything better to do than complain about something you claim to be uninterested in?

Exactly this. So many people sounding truly bitter!

Glitterblue · 09/05/2023 01:37

Also, charles' carriage rant was so easy to find on google, I don't know why nobody could find it.

0021andabit · 09/05/2023 06:34

Glitterblue · 09/05/2023 01:34

Exactly this. So many people sounding truly bitter!

But people were forced to watch it, weren’t they? It was on every terrestrial channel, every news bulletin, every newspaper front page. To me, not representative of the diversity of feeling towards the monarchy in the country - some people love it, which is fine &good for them, but others are indifferent & shouldn’t have to be made feel bad for that. It’s not whinging to have an opinion on something that has dominated the news cycle for at least a week.

drinkeatsmile · 09/05/2023 06:49

GillianCarole · 09/05/2023 01:05

Exactly - who wants a boring politician as Head of State? No history or tradition, all they care about are votes.

Think we've entered the twilight zone. We want a Head of State who has a role that actually does something. Nothing to stop the Royal family from continuing with their patronage of charities before anyone comes back with this nonsense - but having the monarch as Head of State is as effective as a painted doll, it's not Hollywood - we need someone who can do a job.
Tradition can be changed and everything was once new. with no history...but we endured that newness and we can again.

Notanothernewname · 09/05/2023 07:08

Glitterblue · 09/05/2023 01:34

Exactly this. So many people sounding truly bitter!

You've come on a thread which is clearly going to have a negative slant just going by the title and then moan about those who don't agree with you views on the monarchy. And we're the bitter ones!

I'm not bitter I believe in equality, I don't think someone should rule just by default of birth. It's outdated in the 21st century. And with the feelings changing in the Commonwealth too I think their time could be up sooner than royalists want us to believe.

Twentyfirstcenturymumma · 09/05/2023 07:24

DownNative · 08/05/2023 23:21

On the contrary, there was no need for the late Queen Elizabeth II to do anything about it because we have the UK Supreme Court which rules on constitutional issues brought before it.

From Politics Review Volume 29, Number 2, November 2019:

"The creation of the Supreme Court was designed to protect the separation of powers within the UK political system. Until the Constitutional Reform Act of 2005 and the creation of the Supreme Court in 2009, the Law Lords in the House of Lords was the highest court in the country. This was referred to as the fusion of powers."

And:

"Due to the uncodified and evolutionary nature of the British constitution, the separation of powers did not exist in the same way, with members of the judiciary (the Law Lords) sitting in the legislature. The change was triggered not due to accusations of corruption within the Lords, but due to a desire to modernise the judiciary and to bring Britain in line with most modern democracies."

In the final analysis, the separation of powers is protected and the system worked. The Supreme Court ruled the Prorogation Of Parliament as illegal.

The Queen knew what she was doing. To refuse any Prime Minister was to set herself in the middle of a power struggle between Parliament and the Prime Minister. Constitutional Law scholars believe this would have resulted in a bigger constitutional issue than Brexit has been.

The Queen wisely avoided that problem knowing the Supreme Court is there as the final arbiter on constitutional issues. In such a situation, the Monarch need not act or appear to subvert the Government.

If we didn't have a UK Supreme Court, you would no doubt have had a point and it would have created a massive constitutional crisis. Just as well we already had one!

As for the Irish President, they have the following limited powers:

the right to refuse a dissolution of the Dail where the Taoiseach "has ceased to retain the support of a majority in Dail Eireann";

the right to refer Bills to the Supreme Court to test their constitutionality;

the right to refer Bills containing matters of national importance if a majority of the Seanad and one-third of the Dail present a joint petition to this effect;

the right to address the Houses of the Oireachtas and the Nation (the text of any such address must have received the prior approval of the Government);

the right to assist in resolving a conflict between the Dail and the Seanad regarding what constitutes a Money Bill;

the President's assent is necessary to the abridgment of time for the consideration of a Bill by the Seanad.

However, the reality is that "most of these powers have never been invoked and only the right to refer Bills to the Supreme Court has been exercised with any frequency (12 times in all)."

In terms of the British Monarch, their powers as follows:

"....main functions as head of state are to appoint the Prime Minister, and all the other ministers; to open new sessions of parliament; and to give royal assent to bills passed by parliament, signifying that they have become law...

The King also chairs monthly meetings of the Privy Council, to approve Orders in Council; he receives incoming and outgoing ambassadors; he makes a host of other appointments, such as the senior judges, but in all this he acts on the advice of the government. He has a weekly audience with the Prime Minister, and receives daily boxes of state papers for his signature, and for information. He also has regular meetings with senior officials of all kinds. "

But the role we most often see the Monarch in is their role as Head Of The Nation. Main functions:

"....the Sovereign acts as a focus for national identity, unity and pride; gives a sense of stability and continuity; officially recognises success and excellence; and supports the ideal of voluntary service. This role has been fulfilled through speeches such as the Queen's address to the nation at the start of the Covid pandemic, and annual broadcast on Christmas day; through giving honours to recognise public and voluntary service; and through visits to the armed forces, schools, hospitals, charities and local organisations.

The Queen carried out just under 300 public engagements in 2019, and Prince Charles 520; but in total 15 members of the royal family carried out 3,567 such engagements. These include national occasions such as attending the Cenotaph for Remembrance Day, or the Trooping The Colour; but the majority are visits to all parts of the UK, to recognise and support the work of local public services and voluntary organisations. The King and other members of the royal family are patrons of over 1000 charities and organisations in the UK and the Commonwealth."

www.ucl.ac.uk/constitution-unit/explainers/what-role-monarchy

The Royal website states "The Sovereign no longer has a political or executive role, he or she continues to play an important part in the life of the nation."

And this in addition to the above can be seen in the UK's rankings in the Global Soft Power list where we're second only to the USA. The Republic of Ireland, on the other hand, is still just about in the top 30.

Overall, the Irish President and the British Monarch are very much ceremonial roles. You most often see them in their respective roles as Head Of The Nation. They're not all that dissimilar in practice and both have some political involvement in different ways.

But it is not their main roles - their ceremonial Head Of The Nation role is. So, this is not really an argument for the abolition of the Monarchy. If we want the King to have the power to personally refer Bills to the Supreme Court, we could do that. But we've no real need to. The system itself works as the Supreme Court proved.

The King reigns, but does not rule. The same could be said of the Irish President.

Many thanks for this excellent post. As others have said it sets out the situation clearly, with reference to fact. Much appreciated.

DownNative · 09/05/2023 08:25

@Lapun and @Twentyfirstcenturymumma you're both welcome! Have a good day!

vera99 · 09/05/2023 08:27

Twentyfirstcenturymumma · 09/05/2023 07:24

Many thanks for this excellent post. As others have said it sets out the situation clearly, with reference to fact. Much appreciated.

And as someone said on another thread the inauguration of the Irish President consisted of a 100,000 euro "buffet" and a simple ceremony. That's the way to do it - so lovely and simple, but they had to fight the British first and get them out of their country.

Inauguration of Michael D Higgins as Ninth President of Ireland

Inauguration of Michael Daniel Higgins as Ninth President of Ireland at St. Patrick's Hall, Dublin Castle, on 11th November 2011.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6yO9me3iH8

DownNative · 09/05/2023 08:37

vera99 · 09/05/2023 08:27

And as someone said on another thread the inauguration of the Irish President consisted of a 100,000 euro "buffet" and a simple ceremony. That's the way to do it - so lovely and simple, but they had to fight the British first and get them out of their country.

Leaving aside your overly simplistic view of Irish history there, that's what apparently works for the Republic of Ireland. Good for them.

But that's not an argument for every other State, especially those where their Heads Of State has considerably more soft power globally than the Irish President does. The ROI is not a major global soft power as shown in the global rankings.

As far as British soft power goes, the Royals and our elaborate ceremonies are a big part of it. We're second only to the USA on that. And soft power is not something to be sniffed at.

vera99 · 09/05/2023 08:57

Soft power is conveniently something pretty unquantifiable and like jobs that have the word 'strategy' in them are probably non-jobs. Even if it is a thing then the continued existence of the BRF is a small component of this and much of it would carry over from an accrual of collective history already in the bag so to speak. As the opening ceremony of the 2012 Olympics showed our greatness is so much more than the existence of the Royal Family and Danny Boyle the director even turned down a knighthood for his sins. Your 'big' is doing a heck of a lot of work there !

DownNative · 09/05/2023 10:12

vera99 · 09/05/2023 08:57

Soft power is conveniently something pretty unquantifiable and like jobs that have the word 'strategy' in them are probably non-jobs. Even if it is a thing then the continued existence of the BRF is a small component of this and much of it would carry over from an accrual of collective history already in the bag so to speak. As the opening ceremony of the 2012 Olympics showed our greatness is so much more than the existence of the Royal Family and Danny Boyle the director even turned down a knighthood for his sins. Your 'big' is doing a heck of a lot of work there !

On the contrary, soft power is something that IS quantifiable so much so soft power rankings can be compiled and a strong methodology created.

"In contrast to the coercive nature of hard power, soft power describes the use of positive attraction and persuasion to achieve foreign policy objectives. Soft power shuns the traditional foreign policy tools of carrot and stick, seeking instead to achieve influence by building networks, communicating compelling narratives, establishing international rules, and drawing on the resources that make a country naturally attractive to the world."

softpower30.com/what-is-soft-power/

Arguably, the strongest example of Republic of Ireland soft power is the St Patrick's Day events, especially the visit to the White House.

But it is not the Irish President who goes there and has the spotlight. That role falls to the Irish Prime Minister who is much better known globally as a result.

As a ceremonial Head Of State and Head Of The Nation, the Irish President pales into insignificance next to many equivalents. Especially the British Head Of State and Head Of The Nation, our reigning Monarch.

Even the 2012 Olympics made excellent use of British Royalty which speaks to the soft power!

The absolute reality is that the British Monarch is well known around the world to a massive degree. They are a big part of British soft power.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/11/europe/united-kingdom-queen-soft-power-intl-cmd-gbr/index.html

https://uscpublicdiplomacy.org/blog/elizabeth-ii-charles-iii-triumph-british-ceremonial-and-soft-power

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lseih/2022/06/30/royal-soft-power-the-british-royal-family-as-public-diplomats/

The British Royal Family are the definition of Global Britain.

What is Soft Power?

Joseph Nye, the originator of the concept, initially set out three primary sources of soft power as he developed the concept.

https://softpower30.com/what-is-soft-power