Page 4 | To think British culture is 'fake' nice

Wonderingmyhead · 2023-05-05T09:04:25+00:00

First time posting. Just for background, I've been living in the UK for a long time so I'm a fully integrated resident. Before anyone asks why am I living here. I've made it my home here and have a family here (DH & DD) but I struggle to understand the whole 'let me know if you need help' in EVERY situation of my life eg any time we'd be doing something be it decorating or, more recently, had a baby. My friends/DH's side of family would all say 'let me know if you need help/we're here to help if you need anything' BUT there's is real intention behind it - just words. Another one where people say we should meet up/go for a coffee and when I suggest it takes weeks in advance to schedule it and ends up being cancelled in the end anyway. We had tonnes of people offering help when we had a baby and after getting home from the hospital and realising we don't have any milk etc I told my DH 'well we've had all these help offers' and he told me it's best we order one of those whoosh Tesco deliveries as he'd feel awkward for someone to be dropping shopping off to us without seeing the baby in return (we weren't ready at that point). And any other time I'd attempt to call upon someone's promise it just doesn't go anywhere. The culture I come from is less polite (which I dislike) and more direct, but if someone offers help they mean it and will turn up at your door to help. So help out a gal. So I'm wondering is it just me who thinks this way or AIBU/pessimistic?

Ionacat · 05/05/2023 12:03

I also recommend reading Watching the English! The parts on queuing had me laughing out loud, it was so accurate!

If you need any help let us know, is a platitude but also I’d say in the vast majority of cases people do mean it, but we’re really reluctant to ask for it. I now say please let me know if you’d like me to pick up shopping, I usually go on a Thursday etc. or look after the children, if you think they’d like to come to X with us, cook you some extra food, I always over-cater etc. etc.

There is also paranoia about being seen to be a CF! My friends and I always joke, we don’t want to have a thread about us on here! I’m scrupulous with repaying back favours etc.

whumpthereitis · 05/05/2023 12:07

Androideighteen · 05/05/2023 11:47

Saying 'I don't really fancy it' will likely be interpreted as you saying the activity/offer is crap. That's rude.

If someone invited you around to their house for a meal and you said you 'didn't fancy it'. What is the host supposed to think? You didn't fancy the meal choice? The company? The location?

Even if the reason is to do with you (anxiety, etc), unless you outrightly state that, the host is likely to think the problem lies with them, and that's rude.

Show quote history

In British culture that is rude, but it’s not a universal truth. I wouldn’t consider that to be a rude reply at all.

I’d take ‘I don’t fancy it’ to mean just that, and not think any more of it. I’d also rather be told that, than be told they had other plans if they didn’t. I’d consider that rude, both in the lie and the assumption that I need to be lied to because my feelings are so delicate that I can’t handle the truth.

Thepeopleversuswork · 05/05/2023 12:08

@Ionacat

There is also paranoia about being seen to be a CF! My friends and I always joke, we don’t want to have a thread about us on here! I’m scrupulous with repaying back favours etc.

Totally. One of the biggest cultural taboos in the UK is around taking things (money, help etc) even if happily given, and not reciprocating.

I hate asking people for favours and have to psyche myself up to ask even for small favours.

willWillSmithsmith · 05/05/2023 12:09

Dutch1e · 05/05/2023 11:18

YANBU. I'm a non-EU immigrant based in the Netherlands and was seconded to England for a year or so on a work assignment. My home culture is more polite than the Dutch culture but nothing like my experiences in England. It honestly got to the point where I stopped believing anyone, it felt like everyone I met was a liar. It was very demoralising.

Hopefully your secondment has ended now and you’ve left.

Dracuuule · 05/05/2023 12:10

I've noticed this. I'm from a culture that's more direct in the help offered and a vague 'let me know if you need any help' is taken as just polite talk.
If I know a friend needs help, I'll contact her directly and say 'I'm off to the supermarket. What do you need?' Or I might make extra food and give it as no one would actually say 'could you please sort out dinner for me as that would be so helpful'

wheresmymojo · 05/05/2023 12:11

thecatsmeows · 05/05/2023 12:01

No, you are totally correct. I'm French/Australian, have lived in the UK on/off for 40 years now (dragged here by my parents when I was 14).

In my experience with the British it is all 'fake politeness' - both French/Australians are far more blunt (some would say rude) but especially with Aussies, if help is offered it is mean. Same goes with invitations. I stupidly used to get all excited when people started going on about future plans, it took me literally decades to realise that 99.9% of it was just hot air.

I've got UK friends I've known for over 15 years and I've never set foot in their houses (most have been to mine). Never been invited, most meet ups are in public. In Australia this would be unheard of - my mother still lives there, had lived in the UK for nearly 30 years and she still doesn't understand it.

Since Brexit the only thing that keeps me in the UK are my two cats. Once they are no longer with me (probably in about a decades time), I will probably go back to Australia.

It's not meant to be rude.

It's actually our own insecurities that prevent us from inviting people to our homes.

One thing that isn't great about English culture is that we're constantly judging people on social class, even those of us who think the concept of 'class' is horrible will still know the thousands of markers that slot people into a 'class' and do it without even meaning to.

It means we also feel constantly judged (because we are) which makes us much less comfortable letting people into our homes unless we're extremely sure of ourselves that what people will find will make them think we're extremely well put together.

So it's not about you - it's not that they don't want to be friends or think you're not good enough to enter their home.

I literally shudder at the idea of anyone other than extremely close friends (like 20 years of friendship) or family coming to my home and it's nothing to do with not liking the other people, I'm very friendly and actually an extrovert.

Mainly, I feel like my house will be judged...as a typically English person I feel like my house is basically an extension of my own identity. So if you're judging my house then you're judging me and I'm (in advance) assuming both will be found wanting!

IBlinkThereforeIAm · 05/05/2023 12:11

whumpthereitis · 05/05/2023 10:34

It’s enough of a thing that it’s become a meme.

I’ve also noticed this. I come from a country where people communicate very directly, but in the UK this is often perceived as rude, and rudeness I’ve found seems to be considered the worst of all sins to be avoided at all costs.

It’s one thing I definitely still struggle with despite otherwise being fluent. There’s a lot of reading between the lines required. I’ve had to temper my own way of communicating, but I’m still considered blunt (just not as blunt).

This is funny, except why would someone think "that's not bad" mean that it is bad/ poor? In this case the British person is saying what they mean! That the thing is decent/ok i.e. "not bad".

Yes OP, I agree. People here are often not very genuine in their interactions. I prefer people who are more direct and say when they mean. All of the "sorry" when people are seething inside and think something is your fault, and the "how are you?" instead of "hello" when they do not actually want to talk about how you are is also really weird.

ladygindiva · 05/05/2023 12:13

Thepeopleversuswork · 05/05/2023 11:57

@SequinsandStilettos

An Englishman's home is his castle.

I didn't really understand what this phrase meant until I spent several months living in South America.

The English attitude towards home, space and privacy is so different from the attitude of people in Latin cultures.

English people basically really resent having other people in their homes unless it's completely on their own terms and with lots of preparation (you'll see this on these threads on here about people not opening their doors). It feels intrusive and it's often seen as a waste of time. To an English person the prospect of having people in your home, "helping" you would engender severe anxiety.

In Latin America and Southern Europe it's absolutely normal to tip up to other people's homes without notice and stay, uninvited (but quite welcome) for hours and hours, just chatting and not doing very much. It would never be considered intrusive or time-wasting.

Such a different approach.

Sounds like my worst nightmare

SophieinParis · 05/05/2023 12:15

Tbf I often say “if there’s anything I can help with” and I do really mean it at the time but if someone called me at 8pm and asked me to go to the shops and bring them milk id be very surprised! Likewise id never ever ask anyone for such a favour!

willWillSmithsmith · 05/05/2023 12:18

wheresmymojo · 05/05/2023 11:54

@yellowsmileyface

It would be seen as rude as it would be interpreted as meaning something along the lines of...

"Thanks for the invitation but I'd rather not spend time with you even though I have nothing else to do"

The reason being that culturally English people are quite socially awkward - we find it quite difficult to establish friendships or even talk to each other(!). You only need to see how many MN threads are started about how to make friends, etc.

English people will often cultivate potential friendships over many months from first meeting to getting to the point of suggesting meeting up.

So, if an English person has put out an invitation to someone it's actually a 'massive deal' to them and a rejection is therefore potentially a much bigger 'blow' than it would be for cultures where social things come more easily.

Other English people on some level understand this and so will make up an excuse to not attend, not because they want to 'lie' but because they don't want to hurt the other persons feelings.

I mean...I don't want to over egg it too much. We're not crying into our pillows or anything but to get to the point with an English person that they're inviting you to meet is a much bigger sign of genuine interest in friendship and personal investment than it would be for some other cultures who might give invitations out much more casually and with less personal investment in terms of whether people come or don't come.

(As always with cultural things there are often exceptions to this for close friends and family)

Spot on. To be invited in to the home of an English person is actually a compliment and not one that is bandied about to all and sundry. It means they genuinely like you or are hopeful of a good friendship.

I remember years ago inviting one of the school mums round with her new puppy as I also had a puppy and they could play in the garden. She didn’t take me up on the offer and (although it’s silly as I’m a grown up) I felt really hurt and embarrassed that she rejected the offer. I didn’t pursue any kind of friendship after that.

whumpthereitis · 05/05/2023 12:22

Wonderingmyhead · 05/05/2023 12:01

I'm from a Slavic background, my family originate from Russia, but I wasn't born there.

I know it's infamous for its rude people, so British politeness such as please/sorry/thank you was a breath of fresh air - it still is, to be honest. But it was a struggle trying to distinguish the polite offers vs real offers of help.

This thread has been very insightful. I might have to ask people: are you just being polite or actually want to help?

Hehehehe that will get me a lot of stick 😁

Show quote history

Same in regards to the Slavic background. My father is Russian. Russians are very ‘honest’, and surface niceness is considered to be insincere and is thus not to be trusted. Hence you generally won’t see Russians randomly smiling at strangers or exchanging pleasantries. Russians will absolutely tell you what they think, and it’s up to you to deal with it.

That said, once you’ve cracked that surface ‘iciness’ Russians are very warm and hospitable, and will put themselves out for their friends and family. Friends are welcomed as family*

I’m generalizing, obviously, but this thread is about overarching cultural traits.

Dutch1e · 05/05/2023 12:22

willWillSmithsmith · 05/05/2023 12:09

Hopefully your secondment has ended now and you’ve left.

Show quote history

Definitely, especially as it was in the same year as the Brexit vote when all that fake niceness fell away (just like yours does when you can be anonymous online).

wheresmymojo · 05/05/2023 12:22

The 'how are you?' thing is basically just English social awkwardness combined with the cultural need for privacy and 'not making a fuss'.

It's not that we don't care how you are...

It's just that it's a phrase that started to be used when 'How do you do', which was said as a statement rather than a question and meant to invoke the same response back (How do you do?), started to feel too formal.

So it morphed into 'How are you?' as a kind of general greeting statement.

Other English people automatically know that the 'correct' response is something extremely short and then to ask the other person the same. This maintains a similar function to the original 'How do you do'.

So it's better to think of it as a general greeting custom along the lines of Asian's putting their hands together or performing a small bow 🙏🏻

In Muslim cultures everyone greets everyone with the Salam (peace be upon you) and it's customary to reply with similar (and upon you).

Don't think of it as a question basically.

Again, if we assume no malicious intent in the vast majority of people from any culture and dig into things a little more it helps the world be a better place.

willWillSmithsmith · 05/05/2023 12:24

Dutch1e · 05/05/2023 12:22

Definitely, especially as it was in the same year as the Brexit vote when all that fake niceness fell away (just like yours does when you can be anonymous online).

Show quote history

My fake niceness? Where was that. ?🤔

Thepeopleversuswork · 05/05/2023 12:25

@ladygindiva

Sounds like my worst nightmare

I really struggled with it. I'm English (and very "English"). In theory I loved the idea of the openness and friendliness and it was fun for a few weeks but after a while it got really draining.

It wasn't so much the privacy issue for me. The thing I really hated was the waste of time and the idea that someone is entitled to take up that much of your free time just to chew the fat and drink coffee because they feel like it. It was really hard to get things I wanted to do done and I ended up delaying a lot of things I wanted to do in order not to seem impolite or unkind to people I didn't know all that well.

In defence of British culture: the flip side of the "rudeness" is that British culture values individualism, self-motivation and self-sufficiency. There is a lot about British culture which is remote and cold. But it's much easier for the individual to please themselves without being hidebound by what the "community" wants from them and if you're a bit of a self-starter you can get on with things and suit yourself without worrying about who you are upsetting. A lot of it comes down to your personality and how you want to live.

SunnySaturdayMorning · 05/05/2023 12:27

I might have to ask people: are you just being polite or actually want to help?

Well that would be exceptionally rude of you.

wheresmymojo · 05/05/2023 12:30

@whumpthereitis

Ooh, I have a cultural question for you.

I'm on holiday in Sri Lanka at the moment and lots of Russians here.

It's a very middle class resort, fairly expensive...

It seems to be 'a thing' that the Russian guests like to put on their own music quite loud around the pool from their phones (or maybe even a small speaker?).

Obviously English people would see this as 'unbelievably rude' and I actually remarked to my DH that it was interesting as (sticking to my own personal mantra) obviously Russians, like anyone else, aren't trying to be rude it must be culturally acceptable?

It's so (literally) foreign to us though that we couldn't get our heads around it...

From an English perspective it's rude to 'intrude' on someone's 'privacy' and so that includes doing anything that would 'intrude' like music / smoking / etc into other people's space.

Is that different in Russia?

Am genuinely intrigued...

Original poster

Wonderingmyhead · 05/05/2023 12:32

whumpthereitis · 05/05/2023 12:22

Same in regards to the Slavic background. My father is Russian. Russians are very ‘honest’, and surface niceness is considered to be insincere and is thus not to be trusted. Hence you generally won’t see Russians randomly smiling at strangers or exchanging pleasantries. Russians will absolutely tell you what they think, and it’s up to you to deal with it.

That said, once you’ve cracked that surface ‘iciness’ Russians are very warm and hospitable, and will put themselves out for their friends and family. Friends are welcomed as family*

I’m generalizing, obviously, but this thread is about overarching cultural traits.

Show quote history

You have taken the words straight out of my mouth!

I used to love being able to just turn up at my nan's or aunt's house for lunch but it doesn't work like this in the UK. Of course, I understand that people like/value their privacy here more. I'm definitely getting to grips with the culture but sometimes can't shake my 'old' ways where I have to adjust my behaviour.

Very interesting though!

OP posts:

AskMeMore · 05/05/2023 12:32

@Thepeopleversuswork Your problem is that you are still behaving in an English way. Tell them they have to go now as you have something to do. Tell them they can only come in for a quick coffee as you are so busy with housework, unless they want to help.

ChevyCamaro · 05/05/2023 12:35

This is interesting, and YANBU at all OP.
I am English, but with a non-English background, and just by nature don't quite manage to fit in with the way the English are about their homes and privacy, and the terror of intimacy! I totally get all the nuances and the fake politeness, I just don't really do it back. If a friend, even a newish friend knocked on my door unexpectedly I would be a bit surprised, but it would be fine (if I had no good biscuits I would have to apologise though!) It can be really hard to make friends here as an adult, especially once your kids are grown. I have work friends that I really like, but have never progressed the friendship into non-work environments, and am not sure how I would do this. Maybe they don't really like me back!

Thepeopleversuswork · 05/05/2023 12:35

AskMeMore · 05/05/2023 12:32

@Thepeopleversuswork Your problem is that you are still behaving in an English way. Tell them they have to go now as you have something to do. Tell them they can only come in for a quick coffee as you are so busy with housework, unless they want to help.

Yeah, the trouble is they were family. Wasn't that easy.

IBlinkThereforeIAm · 05/05/2023 12:36

wheresmymojo · 05/05/2023 12:22

The 'how are you?' thing is basically just English social awkwardness combined with the cultural need for privacy and 'not making a fuss'.

It's not that we don't care how you are...

It's just that it's a phrase that started to be used when 'How do you do', which was said as a statement rather than a question and meant to invoke the same response back (How do you do?), started to feel too formal.

So it morphed into 'How are you?' as a kind of general greeting statement.

Other English people automatically know that the 'correct' response is something extremely short and then to ask the other person the same. This maintains a similar function to the original 'How do you do'.

So it's better to think of it as a general greeting custom along the lines of Asian's putting their hands together or performing a small bow 🙏🏻

In Muslim cultures everyone greets everyone with the Salam (peace be upon you) and it's customary to reply with similar (and upon you).

Don't think of it as a question basically.

Again, if we assume no malicious intent in the vast majority of people from any culture and dig into things a little more it helps the world be a better place.

Yes I understand it isn't meant as a question, that is why it seems very fake. A phrase that isn't a question to communicate this would be much more appropriate.

I am British btw!

wheresmymojo · 05/05/2023 12:37

wheresmymojo · 05/05/2023 12:22

The 'how are you?' thing is basically just English social awkwardness combined with the cultural need for privacy and 'not making a fuss'.

It's not that we don't care how you are...

It's just that it's a phrase that started to be used when 'How do you do', which was said as a statement rather than a question and meant to invoke the same response back (How do you do?), started to feel too formal.

So it morphed into 'How are you?' as a kind of general greeting statement.

Other English people automatically know that the 'correct' response is something extremely short and then to ask the other person the same. This maintains a similar function to the original 'How do you do'.

So it's better to think of it as a general greeting custom along the lines of Asian's putting their hands together or performing a small bow 🙏🏻

In Muslim cultures everyone greets everyone with the Salam (peace be upon you) and it's customary to reply with similar (and upon you).

Don't think of it as a question basically.

Again, if we assume no malicious intent in the vast majority of people from any culture and dig into things a little more it helps the world be a better place.

I guess I meant to add here that if someone interprets it as an actual question and gives a proper in-depth personal reply then the awkwardness is basically the English person just feeling hugely awkward that the customary greeting has unintentionally intruded on the other person's privacy.

We wouldn't 'intrude' by asking people we don't know (very) well to tell us details about their life

CoronationWombleSandwiches · 05/05/2023 12:38

Genuine offers of help are usually followed by more specific information about the help on offer:

'Let me know if there's anything I can do to help. I'm going shopping on Tuesday, so just text me if there's anything I can pick up for you.'

IBlinkThereforeIAm · 05/05/2023 12:40

We wouldn't 'intrude' by asking people we don't know (very) well to tell us details about their life

Indeed, so a different form of greeting that isn't phrased as a question about that would be a better idea!