To think British culture is 'fake' nice

[Wonderingmyhead]

First time posting.

Just for background, I've been living in the UK for a long time so I'm a fully integrated resident.

Before anyone asks why am I living here. I've made it my home here and have a family here (DH & DD) but I struggle to understand the whole 'let me know if you need help' in EVERY situation of my life eg any time we'd be doing something be it decorating or, more recently, had a baby. My friends/DH's side of family would all say 'let me know if you need help/we're here to help if you need anything' BUT there's is real intention behind it - just words.

Another one where people say we should meet up/go for a coffee and when I suggest it takes weeks in advance to schedule it and ends up being cancelled in the end anyway.

We had tonnes of people offering help when we had a baby and after getting home from the hospital and realising we don't have any milk etc I told my DH 'well we've had all these help offers' and he told me it's best we order one of those whoosh Tesco deliveries as he'd feel awkward for someone to be dropping shopping off to us without seeing the baby in return (we weren't ready at that point). And any other time I'd attempt to call upon someone's promise it just doesn't go anywhere.

The culture I come from is less polite (which I dislike) and more direct, but if someone offers help they mean it and will turn up at your door to help.

So help out a gal.

So I'm wondering is it just me who thinks this way or AIBU/pessimistic?

Life is better for everyone if we all work from the starting point that most people in any culture don't want to be rude, fake or anything similar.

So if something from another culture seems rude, fake or whatever it's best to try and figure out where it comes from culturally rather than assume the worst.

Dutch people aren't direct because they want to be rude.

Americans don't smile and give good service just to get tips.

English people aren't vague about offering help just to avoid helping.

See, I genuinely don't see how it's rude. I always thank people for the invitation, but am honest if I don't want to go.

Saying "I have other plans" is a fake excuse. If I don't have other plans, I won't say that I do. I know it's what people refer to as a "white lie" which is socially acceptable (even socially expected) but I can't bring myself to do it.

Why couldn't your husband just go out and get milk?

You are definitely not being unreasonable. My DH is from a multicultural family, I'm British ND there's so many nuances to British socialising. There's a lot of undertones that's hard to get. You should be successful and keep up with the joneses but you should also be self-deprecating and subtle.

Yes, I agree with PPs your DH is also been very British in refusing to accept help that was genuinely offered.

People don't like to intrude, so they won't just turn up to mind the baby while you sleep or fetch you some shopping, but most would be happy to be asked after they've offered.

You're totally right OP. British culture is very two-faced about social stuff.

I think in part it's to do with the way British people show affection: it's a code which is often baffling to outsiders because it's in reverse order. Real genuine affection is often expressed in ways which superficially appear rude or aggressive, whereas politeness is often used to mask indifference or hostility.

This diagram can be useful.

I don't think this necessarily means your friends or relatively don't like you. But I think you have to remember that those throwaway "let me know if I can help" comments in British culture are essentially meaningless. They are punctuation.

I agree actually though that if I'd gone out to get you milk, I'd expect a quick coo over baby when I dropped it off 🙂

Haha I much prefer the Chinese way of socialising. "You look a bit fat" "You look a bit thin". "Why do you look annoyed?" It's so straightforward and no nuances to understand.

And to add one more point: you reference cultures which are more "direct" but where help, when offered, is genuinely available. I know what you mean and you're right, it is more honest and truly meant. (I married into a culture like this and people really do bend over backwards to help but without the platitudes around it)

The thing is, a lot of people in Britain (particularly people in cities) really don't want help because help = intrusion. I think it's a peculiarly British syndrome that people have to be seen to be very self-sufficient, financially, emotionally and physically, because they feel judged for asking for help. And because they don't want other people turning up at their homes doing things for them. Most British people loathe the idea of strangers coming into their home.

I'm not saying I think this is better or worse btw. Just trying to provide some context.

I like Dutch directness. Everyone knows where they stand and because it's the norm, it means offence isn't caused in the same way as they aren't busy trying to trip over themselves to be the height of politeness. They just say 'no that doesn't work for me'. Which is fine.

The Dutch are probably my spiritual soulmates in terms of where I feel most at home in the world.

English are 'fake nice' with politeness because they are desperate not to upset and hurt others.

Americans can genuinely be the nicest and friendliest people. There can be a real natural innocence to that desire to smile and be nice - rather than because they want tips. It can be driven by an ambition of 'being the best' too.

It's fascinating to me, but I do agree with the point made above about understanding where the cultural norms on being nice come from and what the intent really is.

I agree to some extend. I remember when I moved to UK and just started to flat out ask if they were genuinely offering or being polite. It usually ended with a giggle between us when they admitted that they offered a ride just to be polite and fully expecting me to decline 😃

My bf is British and I'm not. I've had to remind him that he can't say yes to my family and friends when they suggest something if he has zero plans to follow through. We have our own version on how to offer help without meaning to and it is different from the British version of phraise that is a yes but between lines is a no.

However in my experience usually in family and giid friends there are genuine offers to help and people go out if their way. It's more people that are not in the inner circle that do the yes but no.

Again, this is about culturally 'not making a fuss'.

It's most likely the case that the English person felt they made their displeasure at the time you did something wrong very, very clear.

They will have potentially huffed, tutted, given a 'Paddington hard stare' or a slightly veiled reference using a certain tone or intonation.

To another English person these would be screaming sirens of 'you've just massively offended me'. We're all highly attuned to them...English people rarely directly address something because that would be 'making a fuss' so we are all very, very aware of eye rolls, a little huff, slightly off body language.

The English person would have walked away thinking they made it very clear that you'd offended them when you said 'X' and will think you've then been rude to ignore the fact you've clearly offended or upset them.

However people from other cultures that are more direct haven't had to attune to such (to them) small gestures of offence and it usually goes totally over their heads and are left wondering what happened and why the English person has suddenly ghosted them.

As it happens English and Japanese culture are more similar in these ways - less direct and more prone to expressions of offence through body language and small changes in tone / intonation.

Neither type of culture is right or wrong...the more we realise that, the better we can all get along.

If I offered help to someone then I would mean it. I don't offer to just anyone though.

In terms of meeting for coffee, yes, you are right. People say that all the time and don't mean it. I never message someone to organise anything if they say this line as I know it's just a polite way to wrap up a conversation.

I don't say it either though unless I arrange a time and place with someone on the spot. I hate all the faff and indecision most people seem to go through before making a firm plan, even if they truly are up for it. Things like 'we could try out that new cafe that opened or go to x, or maybe x?' and it goes back and forth...

I think being ND in this country is really difficult as the social rules are so complex. I don't have to mask much if at all with DHs family

Saying 'I don't really fancy it' will likely be interpreted as you saying the activity/offer is crap. That's rude.

If someone invited you around to their house for a meal and you said you 'didn't fancy it'. What is the host supposed to think? You didn't fancy the meal choice? The company? The location?

Even if the reason is to do with you (anxiety, etc), unless you outrightly state that, the host is likely to think the problem lies with them, and that's rude.

Two thoughts: 1) if I say let me know if you need help and you ask for help I will help you. On the other hand if you say let me know if you need help and I need help I will probably find some workaround by myself, because I am shy of asking for help/don’t want to be beholden. The vast majority of Brits are like this.
2) the coffee thing is because being generally embarrassed in social situations anyway, we Brits—at least the English—don’t know how to say goodbye. To say “goodbye” without future “plans” seems cold, it means “I’ll never see you again or even think about you within a minute of this interaction.” Well, that’s a bit cold, so we make fake plans. The fake plans mean: it was nice to see you and I might be happy to do it again at some vague time.” It doesn’t mean “let’s make a date” but it hold the possibility of another meeting open in a way that even the cheeriest cheerio without said “plan” doesn’t.

Yes, like saying see you later to someone you will really never see ever again 😆

Watching the English mentioned above is an excellent read, yes.
An Englishman's home is his castle.
no I'm not answering the door today. Or any day

@yellowsmileyface

It would be seen as rude as it would be interpreted as meaning something along the lines of...

"Thanks for the invitation but I'd rather not spend time with you even though I have nothing else to do"

The reason being that culturally English people are quite socially awkward - we find it quite difficult to establish friendships or even talk to each other(!). You only need to see how many MN threads are started about how to make friends, etc.

English people will often cultivate potential friendships over many months from first meeting to getting to the point of suggesting meeting up.

So, if an English person has put out an invitation to someone it's actually a 'massive deal' to them and a rejection is therefore potentially a much bigger 'blow' than it would be for cultures where social things come more easily.

Other English people on some level understand this and so will make up an excuse to not attend, not because they want to 'lie' but because they don't want to hurt the other persons feelings.

I mean...I don't want to over egg it too much. We're not crying into our pillows or anything but to get to the point with an English person that they're inviting you to meet is a much bigger sign of genuine interest in friendship and personal investment than it would be for some other cultures who might give invitations out much more casually and with less personal investment in terms of whether people come or don't come.

(As always with cultural things there are often exceptions to this for close friends and family)

That particular response was just an example.

Even if the reason is to do with you (anxiety, etc), unless you outrightly state that, the host is likely to think the problem lies with them, and that's rude.

This is exactly my point, that I prefer to be honest. If I have anxiety about going to something, which is indeed sometimes the case, then I'll say I have anxiety and not that I don't fancy it.

The not fancying it was more in the context of something like "we're all going out to such and such for drinks later if you want to come?"

In terms of your example of going to a friend's house for a meal, if I didn't want to go on a particular day I would just re-arrange, I'd never say "nah don't fancy it" to such an offer.

I think basically I worded myself poorly and my attitude has been misunderstood.

There are tons of cultural studies, theories and models that can be used. Every country has their version of how to interpret speech and actions. It varies everywhere and that's where cultural misunderstandings come from.

@SequinsandStilettos

An Englishman's home is his castle.

I didn't really understand what this phrase meant until I spent several months living in South America.

The English attitude towards home, space and privacy is so different from the attitude of people in Latin cultures.

English people basically really resent having other people in their homes unless it's completely on their own terms and with lots of preparation (you'll see this on these threads on here about people not opening their doors). It feels intrusive and it's often seen as a waste of time. To an English person the prospect of having people in your home, "helping" you would engender severe anxiety.

In Latin America and Southern Europe it's absolutely normal to tip up to other people's homes without notice and stay, uninvited (but quite welcome) for hours and hours, just chatting and not doing very much. It would never be considered intrusive or time-wasting.

Such a different approach.

I'm from a Slavic background, my family originate from Russia, but I wasn't born there.

I know it's infamous for its rude people, so British politeness such as please/sorry/thank you was a breath of fresh air - it still is, to be honest. But it was a struggle trying to distinguish the polite offers vs real offers of help.

This thread has been very insightful. I might have to ask people: are you just being polite or actually want to help?

Hehehehe that will get me a lot of stick 😁

No, you are totally correct. I'm French/Australian, have lived in the UK on/off for 40 years now (dragged here by my parents when I was 14).

In my experience with the British it is all 'fake politeness' - both French/Australians are far more blunt (some would say rude) but especially with Aussies, if help is offered it is mean. Same goes with invitations. I stupidly used to get all excited when people started going on about future plans, it took me literally decades to realise that 99.9% of it was just hot air.

I've got UK friends I've known for over 15 years and I've never set foot in their houses (most have been to mine). Never been invited, most meet ups are in public. In Australia this would be unheard of - my mother still lives there, had lived in the UK for nearly 30 years and she still doesn't understand it.

Since Brexit the only thing that keeps me in the UK are my two cats. Once they are no longer with me (probably in about a decades time), I will probably go back to Australia.

Yes, also this...

It's primarily about 'privacy' which is a massive thing culturally.

Our homes with our walled/fenced off gardens are our little zone of private space.

I remember every time I've been to countries where there are no fences or walls between properties it's practically given me the shivers!