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AIBU?

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Original poster

Was I accidentally homophobic?

162 replies

jamie98765 · 04/05/2023 08:20

Firstly, apologies in advance if I upset anyone with this, that is not my intention. But if I am wrong, I need to educate myself and the only way to do so is to ask questions, I hope this is a safe space to do so.

Am I homophobic by describing someone as camp???

One of my straight male colleagues refers to himself as camp. Recently in a conversation, I described him in the same way, one of my managers overheard and said that this was a homophobic term and unacceptable. I explained that I believe camp to mean flamboyant or effeminate I also said that not all gay men are camp And not all camp men are gay.
However, my manager is insistent that this term is homophobic and has decided to take it further.

I have spoken to several gay friends who do not believe it to be homophobic, but I wondered what the general consensus was?

Aside from the fact I don't want to get in trouble, I genuinely didn't believe I was in the wrong , but now I am questioning that.

Apologies again if this upsets anyone but I need to know.

TIA

OP posts:
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8
CurlewKate · 04/05/2023 12:05

The fact of the matter is that, regardless of whether it's homophobic, it's a completely daft way to indicate that someone is un threatening and not going to scare a vulnerable woman.

Tarantullah · 04/05/2023 12:12

thekindlyone · 04/05/2023 11:56

Surely the difference is saying something about yourself vs saying something about someone else?

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Why though in this case? OP has been accused of saying something homophobic- the man who uses it to describe themselves is straight therefore he isn't from the oppressed group the manager is claiming are being harmed. Why is it okay for him and not OP? Can white people go around calling themselves racial slurs and it's only then an issue if someone else refers to them that way? Certainly in this case it should be okay in the workplace or not.

SliceOfCakeCupOfTea · 04/05/2023 12:12

thekindlyone · 04/05/2023 11:56

Surely the difference is saying something about yourself vs saying something about someone else?

Show quote history

Well it depends if people are saying the word is a slur used against gay men. In which case a non-gay man can't 'reclaim' it as it isn't 'his' to reclaim.

If it's just a word that can be used by anyone, then why can't it be used as a descriptive word between people who are familiar with each other?

Original poster
jamie98765 · 04/05/2023 12:16

CurlewKate · 04/05/2023 12:05

The fact of the matter is that, regardless of whether it's homophobic, it's a completely daft way to indicate that someone is un threatening and not going to scare a vulnerable woman.

I didn't indicate that it means he's unthreatening to a vulnerable women.
He himself had suggested that out of the team present he was the best for the job - to paraphrase he had suggested something along the lines of better the camp guy then a bunch of big burly men.

Whether you believe it's daft or not doesn't actually answer my original question of if its homophobic or not.

Whilst I appreciate from your original answer you would rather me describe someone by the colour of their hair/jumper I don't think if he had suggested "better the guys in the red jumper" would have fit the situation either?

OP posts:
Naunet · 04/05/2023 12:20

This reply has been deleted

The OP has privacy concerns about this thread, so we've agreed to take it down.

It’s not a slur, but seeing as I’ve regularly been called a bitch, a slag, a slut, ugly, etc by men as a woman, I’m sure they’d cope, just like women do.

Red0 · 04/05/2023 12:34

OP, I think you can see from all the posts that there are mixed opinions on this. For the sake of not finding yourself in trouble at work, rather than argue it, if I were you I would say pretty much what you’ve already said to your manager & in this post: I apologise that I used a term that I have now been told was considered to be homophobic by some people, that was not my intention. However as homophobia is having a dislike of or prejudice against gay people, I would like to point out that I am not a homophobic person, it just seems that I have misunderstood the meaning of the word camp. I appreciate having the opportunity to educate myself. I have apologised to the individual I was referring to, who said he took no offence to me using this word, and would like to assure you that I will not use this term again in the workplace.

W0tnow · 04/05/2023 12:53

What does your boss mean when he says ‘take it further?’

I think the best defence is offence. He overheard a private conversation. He wasn’t involved, he doesn’t know the context. Neither you or the person you were speaking with is offended. The person you were speaking to describes himself in those terms, your boss has no business being offended on his behalf, but if he is, it’s not your problem. ‘Taking it further’ is a grossly disproportionate reaction and can we all get back to work now because things are getting farcical.

DisquietintheRanks · 04/05/2023 13:00

Tarantullah · 04/05/2023 11:32

Why hasn't the boss ever raised his concerns with the usage with the straight man who has been using it to describe himself then if he deems it inappropriate and offensive? Surely its not that women are easier to target with this.

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Perhaps he's not heard the OPs friend use it?

DisquietintheRanks · 04/05/2023 13:03

Naunet · 04/05/2023 12:20

It’s not a slur, but seeing as I’ve regularly been called a bitch, a slag, a slut, ugly, etc by men as a woman, I’m sure they’d cope, just like women do.

Show quote history

Sorry, you're saying your manager hears your colleagues refer to you as a bitch, or slag, or shut etc and says nothing? And you say nothing but just "deal with it"?

StarlightLady · 04/05/2023 13:05

If I had a pund for every gay person I know who used the word camp, I would be able to enjoy a really nice meal in a special high end restaurant.

TheGoogleMum · 04/05/2023 13:06

I think your manager doesn't like you and is looking for an excuse to get you in trouble. You were simply using the word your colleague uses and said colleague is not offended or similarly in trouble for use of the word.
One thing I hadn't considered- is your manager gay? I agree with others that camp isn't really derogatory and doesn't mean a person is gay but I'd understand his offence a little more if he was

CurlewKate · 04/05/2023 13:30

@StarlightLady "If I had a pund for every gay person I know who used the word camp, I would be able to enjoy a really nice meal in a special high end restaurant."
Yes, me too. But they don't use it to mean a kind unthreatening gentle man who wouldn't frighten a vulnerable woman.

CurlewKate · 04/05/2023 13:35

There is a difference between being offended and recognising that a term is potentially offensive and best avoided.

Original poster
jamie98765 · 04/05/2023 13:52

CurlewKate · 04/05/2023 13:30

@StarlightLady "If I had a pund for every gay person I know who used the word camp, I would be able to enjoy a really nice meal in a special high end restaurant."
Yes, me too. But they don't use it to mean a kind unthreatening gentle man who wouldn't frighten a vulnerable woman.

Just for clarification I have never said I used it as an alternative to describing him as a kind gentle unthreatening man- you have just made that assumption.
I have said he suggested that as he is camp he was less intimidating then a bunch or burly men. Which by the way the entire team agreed with not just myself.

OP posts:
CaroleSinger · 04/05/2023 15:07

I asked my gay son if this was homophobic. His reply? "Don't be ridiculous mum. This is the problem with cancel culture. It isn't the minority themselves who are offended but the people who tell us what we should all be offended by, who are offended".

Peppapigboresme · 04/05/2023 15:24

This reply has been withdrawn

The OP has privacy concerns about this thread, so we've agreed to take it down.

LaMaG · 04/05/2023 15:50

Personally I wouldn't see it as homophobic as its related to many things not just gay men. I wouldn't think its a complimentary thing to say though. But that's fair enough you are allowed say uncomplimentary things to describe people and we all do it ie the heavy dark haired girl, the guy with the eczema etc as long as its not to their face. Your manager is wrong IMO

KalimbaMoon · 04/05/2023 16:24

Camp isn’t a homophobic word IMHO. It’s not necessarily linked to being effeminate, as PP said. Yes, Joan Collins is camp, as is Christmas, Strictly, et al. Anything fancy, extravagant or showy gets labelled as camp.

Re effeminate men… I have heard that some gay people dislike camp guys as they see it as pushing a negative stereotype. I think Alan Carr has been criticised for being camp in the past but it’s just the way he is.

I think in a work setting, it’s best to err on the side of caution when describing colleagues. This chap may have happily called himself camp, but that doesn’t mean that everyone else should say “oh he’s camp”, it just seems very slightly unprofessional.

If someone joked “I’m a right fat bastard, me!” you wouldn’t then refer to them as fat as it’s not really for you to say.

But being hauled over the coals for calling someone camp seems like an overreaction to me. Some people are determined to be offended on others’ behalf, even when it’s not necessary!

SoTedious · 04/05/2023 16:28

I wouldn't think its a complimentary thing to say though.

What makes you think that?

Mangogogogo · 04/05/2023 16:29

I have friends and family members who we all call camp, they call themselves it and we laugh along and call them it too

would I describe anyone else displaying the same characteristics as camp? No

would I ever use that word at work? Absolutely fucking not

so I’m on the fence really. It’s unprofessional but I think this is a lesson learned rather than disciplinary action

Patienceisntvirtuous · 04/05/2023 16:45

I'm a lesbian. I move in circles with a lot of gay people of both genders.
I would be more surprised than I've ever been to learn that it is offensive to describe a gay male as 'camp'. Camp gay men I know do not find it offensive at all. Camp is a thing that can be attributed to anyone, gay/straight/male/female-in fact I've been described as camp myself! Your boss is talking bollocks.

Original poster
jamie98765 · 04/05/2023 18:04

Mangogogogo · 04/05/2023 16:29

I have friends and family members who we all call camp, they call themselves it and we laugh along and call them it too

would I describe anyone else displaying the same characteristics as camp? No

would I ever use that word at work? Absolutely fucking not

so I’m on the fence really. It’s unprofessional but I think this is a lesson learned rather than disciplinary action

I appreciate that. To be honest we are friends outside of work - our family and his family get together regularly, we live on the same road and our kids go to school together. If it was someone I didn't know well or only knew in a work capacity I would be more careful as to how I describe then. He regularly refers to himself as camp (as does his wife) and has stood in my defence about the whole situation. It is my straight male manager who is insistent it was homophobic, not my friend/colleague who I was referring to.

OP posts:
hookiewookie29 · 04/05/2023 18:23

My son is gay- the word 'camp' doesn't offend him..

hattie43 · 04/05/2023 18:29

Your manager is a Prat.
Even my gay dog walker was saying today he hates camp men and butch lesbians.
If every word becomes an issue we will run out of language.

CurlewKate · 04/05/2023 19:02

Loving the influx of people with "loads of gay friends" . It's like the people who have "loads of black friends" who collect gollywogs!

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