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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think this is not what parental leave is for?

409 replies

Friendlybreadbin · 03/05/2023 21:07

I may well BU but interested in people’s opinions. My company offers a fairly standard 25 days plus bank holidays leave package. New colleague comes from a company where they had been for over 20 years and so had got up to 30 days, their old company also offered a ‘buy an additional 10 days leave’ package. Our company doesn’t. Having passed their 3 month probation period (where they also took a lot of leave) they are using leave days like they are going out of fashion, and have already had a skiing holiday and an all inclusive this year. As well as lots of other random days off, it’s seems rare they work a full week. Have been openly saying that they intend to take unpaid leave because they can’t see how they will possibly manage on 25 days when they were used to 40 days and asking how does anyone do that with kids? I have not dissimilar aged kids and have managed with 25 days for my whole career. There are no special needs or circumstances. Their job is flexible and from home.
AIBU that they should learn to manage within their holiday allowance that they accepted by contract? Or as the extra leave is unpaid is this an acceptable strategy? It seems to me they intend to exploit parental leave just because they feel entitled to more holiday than they are contracted to have.
Our company charges customers rates for their time and will therefore lose revenue as we can’t charge when they are OOO. I am their line manager.
I have managed people for 20 years and have never come across anyone with this attitude before, when I have managed people who have taken parental leave it has been for understandable reasons.

OP posts:
Worriedmotheroftwo · 03/05/2023 22:53

And I cannot ABIDE this whole "I suffered managing on 25 days so so should they" attitude. People never used to get maternity benefit either - are we assuming that should go too because 30 years ago it wasn't available

I was thinking exactly this. Made me cringe.

OP, I have to say I'm glad you're not my line manager. You lost me when you called him 'entitled'. Do you think women who take their full maternity leave entitlement are 'entitled' as well? I think he has a very healthy attitude actually. I'm line manager of a department, and I wouldn't dream of the attitude you have towards this man. People have lives first, and jobs second. Yes they have to go by the rules, but it sounds like he is.

pleasehelpwi3 · 03/05/2023 22:53

It's super this person has a good work life balance. Work to Iive, not live to work and all that.

Runnysum · 03/05/2023 22:53

I take a week of unpaid parental leave every summer to spend extra time with my children. I previously worked too long hours in a soulless (not well paid!) job when they were nursery age and when lockdown came and we had all that extra time together I reflected and regret missing out on those early years. So I'm determined to make the most of their primary years and use my statutory entitlement.

I work nearly full time hours during the week so in their holidays I want to minimise their time in childcare. What is an extra week or two of leave across a whole year in the grand scheme of things,? Time with our families is precious.

AnObserverInThisDarkWorld · 03/05/2023 23:06

Worriedmotheroftwo · 03/05/2023 22:53

And I cannot ABIDE this whole "I suffered managing on 25 days so so should they" attitude. People never used to get maternity benefit either - are we assuming that should go too because 30 years ago it wasn't available

I was thinking exactly this. Made me cringe.

OP, I have to say I'm glad you're not my line manager. You lost me when you called him 'entitled'. Do you think women who take their full maternity leave entitlement are 'entitled' as well? I think he has a very healthy attitude actually. I'm line manager of a department, and I wouldn't dream of the attitude you have towards this man. People have lives first, and jobs second. Yes they have to go by the rules, but it sounds like he is.

Parental not Paternal
Even mentions "she" not "he"
But you've decided to make it about gender

AnObserverInThisDarkWorld · 03/05/2023 23:07

AnObserverInThisDarkWorld · 03/05/2023 23:06

Parental not Paternal
Even mentions "she" not "he"
But you've decided to make it about gender

Show quote history

Can't see OP mention gender actually
Apologies

Hiddenvoice · 03/05/2023 23:14

In your opening post you don’t actually make reference to parental leave. They are using their holidays as they are entitled to do so. They have then decided to take extra unpaid leave. Yes it might be annoying to colleagues but it’s this persons decision. If the company overall have a problem then they would need to take it up with them.
I understand it’s different for you to work with/ manage someone who is taking so much time off but they see things differently from you and that’s okay. You have managed to make things work for you in a way you’re happy with and they have decided they need the extra time off that they are used to and want to use that on spending time with their children.
They maybe didn’t realise at the time that they would miss that extra time off.

PoorlyDS · 03/05/2023 23:21

Cantstaystuckforever · 03/05/2023 21:16

Maybe it's a sign for you to take some more leave with your kids?

I've often had the same guilt feelings you have about taking leave, letting down my team etc - and now I look back and wonder why I passed up spending precious weeks with my kids when they were so little, for the sake of a week's pay or for showing my 'willing' to bosses or coworkers who I'm unlikely to see again and who ultimately didn't care that much.

So long as when they are in the office, they're working properly, that's most important. They're not being paid for their extra time off, even if they're also not earning. And instead of feeling jealous, either acknowledge that you have different priorities, or let them do some extra cover when you reorganise things so you can do the same and take the leave.

I regret not taking more leave

0ddSock · 03/05/2023 23:21

They are entitled to it. But most people don't do this at all, probably only because they can't afford to lose money.

1offnamechange · 03/05/2023 23:22

if they are entitled to it then why would they be unreasonable to use it?
If they have children it's fairly likely they are going to spend most of their leave with said kids - which is surely exactly what parental leave is for? If they were talking about going on a cycling holiday alone for the 5 weeks then it might be a bit of a dick move for their partner but still nothing to do with you!

Annual leave is a work benefit like everything else - if they had had a significant reduction in salary rather than A/L would you be criticising them for doing a lot of overtime because they'd got used to a set wage?

LightlySearedontheRealityGrill · 03/05/2023 23:24

If you were complaining that the work was not being done, that clients were being let down, that colleagues were having to go out of their way to cover, and it was a massive issue for the team - I could understand that. But that is not what is coming across, more that you disapprove of how this person lives their life. And I think the responses you are getting highlight that in fact most people would prioritise their children and family as much as they can (within their personal financial constraints). No one on their death bed thinks they wish they had spent more time at work instead of with their family. If there are no issues with getting the work done, then let them crack on.

Sugargliderwombat · 03/05/2023 23:25

I admire them. We are all replaceable at work and if they aren't going off fake sick or anything then they aren't doing anything wrong. We as a whole country should take on a little more of this approach, our mental health would be much better.

AngryBirdsNoMore · 03/05/2023 23:28

This is a fascinating insight.

I had no idea people took parental unpaid leave routinely for holidays and whatnot. Didn’t even consider that was an option!

Ottersmith · 03/05/2023 23:29

Sounds like they've got their work life balance right. Times are changing, it's progressive to have shared contracts and to just hire more staff and let your staff be flexible. Anyone under 50 now won't be able to retire until they are probably in their 70s so this thing of working all the time then taking time off after you retire is old and not a very nice way to live in my opinion.

Teenagehorrorbag · 03/05/2023 23:36

I think you are being unnecessarily bashed here. Not sure about parental leave but I think the company can require it to be taken at a convenient time, so as LM you'd have some say if her absence would be at a bad time.

You haven't said what your company policy is for unpaid leave, but it's not usually something employers offer willy-nilly, if at all. There is a legal right to time off to look after dependants in an emergency, but that's usually for an hour or two while the employee sorts childcare, or a day at the most. If it keeps happening you can terminate the contract due to the employee not being in enough to fulfil their contract. (Worst case scenario, and after following procedures - but if she is still on probation then there isn't too much process required).

I do think some people have a huge entitlement these days. A friend had a young girl start had her workplace recently and she had a very similar approach. No children - but she wanted lots of holidays with family and friends, and expected a) to get the time off at a time to suit her and b) to be granted unpaid leave if she was over her holiday entitlement. I think you're right to be annoyed and your colleague needs to understand what a contract of work actually means.

AngryBirdsNoMore · 03/05/2023 23:44

Ottersmith · 03/05/2023 23:29

Sounds like they've got their work life balance right. Times are changing, it's progressive to have shared contracts and to just hire more staff and let your staff be flexible. Anyone under 50 now won't be able to retire until they are probably in their 70s so this thing of working all the time then taking time off after you retire is old and not a very nice way to live in my opinion.

Such an interesting perspective. I have genuinely never seen it this way.

tulippa · 03/05/2023 23:46

I used to manage someone like this. She used up all her holiday within the first three months of the holiday year. Despite many discussions about the benefits of saving some for later she insisted on taking it and there was nothing I could do about. She didn't have young children so couldn't take parental leave so she then went off sick when all her holiday was used up. I predicted the exact date she would go off. There's not much you can do other than follow your company's leave policies.

GeraltsBathtub · 03/05/2023 23:47

Teenagehorrorbag · 03/05/2023 23:36

I think you are being unnecessarily bashed here. Not sure about parental leave but I think the company can require it to be taken at a convenient time, so as LM you'd have some say if her absence would be at a bad time.

You haven't said what your company policy is for unpaid leave, but it's not usually something employers offer willy-nilly, if at all. There is a legal right to time off to look after dependants in an emergency, but that's usually for an hour or two while the employee sorts childcare, or a day at the most. If it keeps happening you can terminate the contract due to the employee not being in enough to fulfil their contract. (Worst case scenario, and after following procedures - but if she is still on probation then there isn't too much process required).

I do think some people have a huge entitlement these days. A friend had a young girl start had her workplace recently and she had a very similar approach. No children - but she wanted lots of holidays with family and friends, and expected a) to get the time off at a time to suit her and b) to be granted unpaid leave if she was over her holiday entitlement. I think you're right to be annoyed and your colleague needs to understand what a contract of work actually means.

It’s hardly entitled to want to go on holiday. You don’t need to have kids to deserve time off. A lot of places have career break or unpaid leave policies nowadays so that people can go on longer trips or do whatever. I don’t think the girl you mention was being unreasonable to request any of this.

Tigofigo · 03/05/2023 23:47

Seahorse87 · 03/05/2023 22:27

I’m with you OP. It does seem a bit entitled…25 days is still 5 days over the statutory minimum so not bad!

Isn’t taking unpaid leave is generally for exceptional circumstances rather than just extending family holidays? I do see parental leave can be used for a lot of different reasons but my understanding was that it to benefit the child if they are sick, going through a hard time etc? Maybe I’m wrong.

Yes you are wrong.

You can take parental leave for any reason which may benefit the child. Spending time with them. Looking round schools. Taking them on holiday.

daysleepers · 03/05/2023 23:48

Parental leave is government legislation so please be aware of the law! I have actually been thinking g to take next summer off to be with my children.. life is for living!

OP Coming out of the companies revenue, in way of loss of earnings, which doesn't impact you or your pocket, if your job isn't at risk. What is the problem here, I don't understand. Very old school management way of thinking? A hint of jealousy one could afford to take unpaid leave? Like others have said, I'm also glad you aren't my manager 😊

Worriedmotheroftwo · 03/05/2023 23:48

You haven't said what your company policy is for unpaid leave, but it's not usually something employers offer willy-nilly, if at all. There is a legal right to time off to look after dependants in an emergency, but that's usually for an hour or two while the employee sorts childcare, or a day at the most.

What on earth are you talking about?? Have you even read the government documentation on this? You can literally take unpaid parental leave just to spend more time with your kids.

https://www.gov.uk/parental-leave

To think this is not what parental leave is for?
Worriedmotheroftwo · 03/05/2023 23:50

Parental leave is government legislation so please be aware of the law!

Exactly! Some people on this thread don't even seem to know what parental leave actually is!

TooOldForThisNonsense · 03/05/2023 23:51

Gazelda · 03/05/2023 21:27

Are they planning to take parental leave, or unpaid leave. They're not necessarily the same thing.

If it's parental leave, and they book it according to policy, then you have to right to judge what the do on their time off.

If it's simply time off that they are expecting to be able to take without pay, then you need to confirm the organisations policy on this and any limits, notice timescales, frequency etc.

This

Tigofigo · 03/05/2023 23:53

Evenin · 03/05/2023 22:08

I took 8 weeks one year - 4 weeks for each child.

I'm planning on taking more at some point - that's on top of my 35 days of annual leave, shock horror!!

Good for you.

I want to take the whole of next summer off...

TooOldForThisNonsense · 03/05/2023 23:54

dementedpixie · 03/05/2023 21:20

If its actual parental leave then they need to have been employed for 1 year and leave needs to be taken in blocks of 1 week so not random days off here and there.

If its just odd days of unpaid leave they are asking for then surely you can refuse to grant them the time off

Also this

sunflowerdaisyrose · 03/05/2023 23:55

I take a week unpaid parental leave every year to top my leave up so I can spend more time with my children, I've had two employers since I've had children and neither seem remotely perturbed by the idea and it's always approved with no problem. Strange attitude!