Is she English or Portuguese? Please help me settle a debate

[Takeawaypizzatonightcbacooking]

I live in Portugal, I’m English, as is Dh, but Dd was born here.
My dad says Dd is Portuguese as she was born here, I say English because we’re both English…who is right? How does it work if you’re born in a different country to your parents etc?

OP said the DD is entitled to citizenship, which only requires that they lived in Portugal for a year before she was born. Why do you think you know better than her mother that she doesn't have that entitlement?

She is Portuguese with English heritage.

Same way you get British with Indian heritage, British with Jamaican heritage or British with Pakistani heritage.
The parents came and settled in the UK and had children who acquired British Citenzenship.

@MRex if you read what I've posted parents living in Portugal for one year is only one of the criteria to be fulfilled before being considered eligible. The OP asked the question, and is possibly misinformed about something quite important, especially considering Brexit!

I live in an EU country with a substantial immigrant population, many of whom are British with children born here. Some of my British friends could become citizens of the country we're in by going through the proper channels (and by giving up their British citizenship as the country we're in is quite strict on dual nationality) as their children can if they stay, but there's no automatic entitlement through birth or unless citizenship is actively pursued.

She definitely would be an Irish citizen.

@AlexandraMarch I meant a child born in Ireland doesn't automatically become an Irish citizen. Portugal and the UK don't have the same relationship as Ireland and the UK, so like for like she wouldn't be. Uk parents and Ireland yes- any other nationality no.

I don't think you've fully understood the rules, they don't all have to be fulfilled to the point of being age 18 and actually the rules you posted don't seem to be correct. This is the correct link for applying: https://eportugal.gov.pt/en/servicos/pedir-a-nacionalidade-portuguesa#:~:text=You%20were%20born%20in%20Portugal,for%20at%20least%205%20years. This allows that she is Portuguese of just one parent lived in Portugal for 5 years and don't work for their government. If not, there are other routes to citizenship if the family stay there.

My point though was that the mother herself said her DD is able to get citizenship. She knows all their history and her post suggests she has checked. You might say directly to her "are you sure because", but you can't confidently state that the DD does not have a right to citizenship based on your misreading of rules that aren't even quite correct.

@MRex , here is the OP:

I live in Portugal, I’m English, as is Dh, but Dd was born here.
My dad says Dd is Portuguese as she was born here, I say English because we’re both English…who is right? How does it work if you’re born in a different country to your parents etc?

It doesn't look to me like the poster is 100% clear on the rules.

English
But she could be a dual citizen?

I have an English father and had an Italian mother. Was born in England but moved to Italy at 6 months, then to Belgium at 4 where I grew up. Have now been in London since 1996.

Questions of identity are interesting - growing up I felt like I belonged nowhere.

My mother tongue is English so I have ended up in England where I can pretend I belong - or everyone belongs in London in any case, doesn’t matter where you are from.

Depends if you mean culturally or legally.

DH and I are both Scottish (which is problematic anyway, and we are actually British - ‘Scottish’ only exists culturally, not legally). Both our children get British nationality from us.

DS1 was born in NZ. The rules of nationality there mean that he is granted NZ citizenship from birth: he has a NZ passport. So he is British and a New Zealander.

DS2 was born in France. Different rules here: he does not automatically receive French citizenship from being born here. He can claim it when he turns 13, but for now he’s British only.

culturally though… DH and I are Scottish - a nationality which does not legally exist. No Scottish passports. We haven’t lived there for 20 years, but that’s where our roots, family, history are, that’s where our accents come from, that has shaped our view of the world.

Both DSs are Scottish in a similar way, through frequent visits, family connections, stories, meeting other Scottish people here, living in a bit of a bubble as many immigrants do - thought neither of them have lived in Scotland. They certainly identify in that way: if you ask them, they’ll tell you they are Scottish.

we are all culturally British as well, I guess but I have a less clear idea of what that feels like.

DS1 would describe himself as a Kiwi, but he has nothing other than a passport to back it up. We left NZ when he was 4 months old and haven’t been back. We don’t have any family there. He’s very French in a lot of ways - all his schooling, his friends, his life has been French since he was a baby (5 months old when we came here). But he’s obviously not ‘propert’ French, and he wouldn’t describe himself as French.

DS2 is adamant that he isn’t French. He’s Scottish, and that’s good enough for him 😁. Yet ironically he’s likely to get French nationality before any of the rest of us do, just by the way things have worked out.

c’est compliqué.

Place of birth does not automatically designate nationality, so your Dad would be incorrect in holding that view.

It also doesn't have to necessarily be an either/or scenario, subject to whether a specific country allows for dual nationality.

But if you raise your child in a British household where you mainly speak the English language and celebrate British customs in Portugal, then your child will be culturally British.

Likewise, the UK has a Polish community in many areas and most, if not all of their young view themselves as Polish. Some might well pair that with Britishness, but there is still a cultural Polish identity there even though they live in the UK. After all, they will largely have been brought up in homes where the main language and cultural customs would be of Polish origin.

This is so interesting to me! My dad has two Irish parents and he would say hes Irish - as would I - but my mum would say he’s English because he was born in England!

I never know whether I’m half Irish or a quarter Irish 😂

That's how you feel, not everyone.

My daughter feels no affinity to the country we lived in when she was born. Shes moved country several times since then (as has her younger sister, who was born in England). To her, her country of birth is just an oddity on her passport and birth certificate.

Rephrase the question as "where are you from" meaning your home town... and they would both be a bit lost. We have lived in the same place for two years now, with no plans to move so this will probably become their home town, despite only moving here at ages 8&9. But not quite yet.

In a way this is like the America question a few weeks ago... why some Americans still consider themselves Irish etc even though their family has lived in the US for generations.

There's a distinction between one's nationality/citizenship and one's ethnicity/heritage. Your child might carry a Portuguese passport and live in Portugal, but still consider herself to be English ethnically. Or she might not

You’re definitely half, as are my DC!

It's well known that the first or even second born in gen can have very confusing lives. They are oulled in both directions. Because of this some level of "who am i😭" can happen and it's not pleasant. Also why they can be targetted for grooming by extremists.

There is a well known community in my native country and their youth had lovely article about them. How they are stuck because they look like the community but feel like the natives so they are being pulled to both dorections. Then you have issue of traditions when one side eventually loses a bit.

It's fascinating.

Also, will @MNHQ clean up the thread a bit?

@MollyRover - you may be right that OP is confused, but in addition to the first post she said this. I presumed she has some basis for thinking this as there had already been posts explaining that rules vary.

Dual citizenship is not a confusing concept. National identity, however, can be.

Her own internal sense of national identity as she grows up is likely to be more complicated than just feeling one way or the other. Many of us with immigrant parents don't fit neatly into either box. She may well grow up to feel too Portuguese for the British and too British for the Portuguese - that's quite common, and lots of my friends from a variety of cultural backgrounds feel it.

Having a very loose sense (or no sense at all) of national identity is not a bad thing, although some people will never understand it.

@MRex it's not confusing at all, there are several websites explaining criteria. The OP is calling it confusing hence why I think even knowing her own circumstances her dc is not a Portuguese citizen, and may not be entitled to it as easily as being born in Portugal. Important to clarify the situation considering Brexit in my opinion.

You’ve confused nationality and ethnicity/race. My parents are British nationals/citizens by birthright. However, I am ethnically only half English (white) because my mother isn’t ethnically English (white). She has never lived in East Asia, but that’s where her parents were born, and their parents and so on. Her nationality and ethnicity/race are different.

OP’s Dd is ethnically 100% English but her nationality could be Portuguese as she was born there (if she has legal documents stating she has Portuguese citizenship). Black or Asian people who are British nationals/citizens aren’t ethnically British. The British are in Europe and Europeans are white.

I would say English. One of my children was born in Belgium, other 2 have lived here most of their lives. We always used to say we were British. But now we all have Belgian nationality (thanks Brexit) so we really are Belgian/ British!

You don't have to register British children born abroad with the British authorities in order to establish citizenship. You can do a consular birth reg if you want, but it doesn't confer nationality.

i know. But i don't trust the British authorities who seemingly don't know or adhere to their own rules, to accept, in 16 years when one of them wants to work in the UK, not to fuck it up. That is why: belt and braces, at all times, when it has to do with the UK

This is very true. My parents are from two different countries. I was born in my mothers country, which technically doesn’t exist anymore. We emigrated to the UK when my brother and I were children. As a result of this fairly complicated set up we both have more than one citizenship.

I don’t consider myself British, but in terms of cultural identity (as opposed to ethnic identity) I don’t consider myself wholly anything, but rather a mix of influences. Personally I don’t struggle with this, nor find it to be unstable ground. If anything I consider it beneficial because I have an adaptability that I believe is a result of this. That said, others in the same situation can and do struggle with it.

This is exactly how my British friends feel and why they will be applying for citizenship of the country we live in (giving up their British citizenship to do this) and will encourage their children to do the same when they become eligible.

Unless there a major disadvantages to being Portuguese ( like conscription or similar) get her the Portuguese citizenship and passport so that she dual national and has EU passport which is a big advantage for her when she’s older- she’ll have freedom of movement across the EU for work, study, pay lower Uni fees if she were to study abroad wtc

You ARE European. The UK is in Europe. Europe is NOT the same as the EU. There are many European countries that are NOT part of the EU, and they are no less European. Like Switzerland, Russia, Ukraine, etc.

As for the OPs child, she might be ENTITLED to Portuguese citizenship, but if you havent applied for it and she doesnt have it, then she isnt Portuguese. It is not automatic, unless your parents are Portuguese as well.
For foreign parents, they have to have lived in Portugal for at least 5 years, for their children to be entitled to citizenship (well, one of them has to have lived in the country for 5 years).

Of course she might FEEL Portuguese. Specially if she lives in Portugal all her life!