Who is being unreasonable here? Argument in swimming pool

[10LittleMonsters]

Me and DH took kids swimming. DS4 is on waiting list for ASD diagnosis.

All fine. But at one point DH forced DS4 to get in pool which caused a lot of tears. Had fun though mainly

DS4 put the pound coin for the locker in his mouth in changing room.

DH tells him sternly to take it out. He does. He drops on the floor. DH tells him even more sternly to pick it up. DS4 does but it back in his mouth. DH very stern again. DS4 starts crying, throwing all the clothes everywhere; meltdown begins. Hitting us.

I calm him down. Get him dressed. Hes back to being quiet and is picking up his clothes. Says sorry.

At one point I say

"DS4 I know you were angry as daddy told you not to eat the coin, but we can't throw things or hit people"

DH interrupts obviously pissed off

"He can't bloody put a coin in his mouth. Its ridiculous"

I said

"OK OK, let's not get it all going again"

DH now mad at me. Says I undermined him in front of DS4 and in public. Says he is allowed to reiterate things.

I said DS4 was doing as he was told and he wasn't doing anything wrong in that moment and he had put the coin back ages ago.

Was I unreasonable in saying that? DS4 has very strong reactions to negative stuff and while I know we still need boundaries, we were almost all sorted and DS4 was being good so just wanted to get out the changing room

I'm totally taking the comments on board about why it was undermining. I've found this thread helpful in understanding DHs anger at me afterwards (and still).

In the past repeating the reason for his upset back at him has been really helpful e.g. "you were angry because the plate was blue not red" and it often seems v reassuring for him to be understood. I don't mean to do it to say the anger is justified but more than I understand the source of it.

But I get it. It wasn't the right moment and DH heard me dismissing the coin incident which I really didn't mean to do.

Will try and be more united with him and talk to him afterwards. I find it hard as he's so dismissive of ASD specific advice and also seems to think I'm a know it all. Which a couple of you do too!

@10LittleMonsters I doubt any of us who have been through this will claim to have got it right first time every time. Hang in there, but do take the parenting discussions offline!

I don't know if either of you were really being "unreasonable".
It sounds like a stressful experience, which must have been quite disappointing when you just wanted a simple swimming trip.
It sounds like maybe your DH was just reacting emotionally which isn't ideal but it happens. You were also just doing your best to do what you thought was right in that moment.
I'd say try not to blame anyone too much, these things happen and you can learn from it for next time.
Give your DH a hug, you're on the same team!

@CarrotCake01 DH is definitely not up for a hug. He's not even acknowledging my existence today!

Thank you @Daftasabroom got to keep going with this stuff! You know I was dreading this long weekend. That's weird isn't it? Being irritated by all the bank holidays. I find work so much easier than trying to keep our home happy. Makes me so sad.

I really wouldn’t want anyone diluting a message I’d given to my four year old about not putting small hard things in their mouth tbh.

My son has ASD yes yabu op he can't put coins in his mouth.

As an autistic parent to an autistic child, I'd hazard a guess that your son's meltdown was caused by being told off for doing nothing wrong rether than because he wanted to put the coin in his mouth.

I don't mean that putting coins in his mouth is ok. But from an autistic child's perspective he was doing what he was told. He was told to take it out of his mouth, he did. He was told to pick it up, he did. And he still got told off. And he didn't understand why because he doesn't get the implied instructions only the actual spoken ones, hence the meltdown.

Your DH needs to learn to be very specific when giving instructions to an autistic child. What did he want him to do with the coin once he took it out of his mouth? 'DS take it out of you mouth and hold it/give it to me/put it in your pocket.' 'DS pick up the coin and pass it to me' etc.

I remember when we had visitors telling my DD to go and get the packet of biscuits and put them on a plate. She came out with an unopened packet on a saucer. It never occured to her that my instruction included the unspoken bit about opening the packet and putting them out.

This.

Did you at any point explain to DS why we can’t put coins in our mouths? I think you’re expecting too much for a 4yo to understand why his behaviour is wrong and dangerous, you need to explain. I can see why he was upset if he got wrong for doing something that he didn’t know was wrong. I always follow the rule that the first time is a mistake and I explain nicely, and it’s only naughty if the behaviour is repeated after he knows it’s wrong.

Forcing a child into a pool is abusive and I’m surprised the staff didn’t intervene. Absolutely shocking behaviour, how are you even speaking to DH after he’s done that to your child? He needs to apologise and never do anything like that ever again.

Validating a four year old's anger at being told not to do something is ridiculous.

It’s ok to angrily tell a child to not put coins in their mouth because that is a real safety risk. But forcing a child to get in a swimming pool to the point of tears when they are on the wait list for ASD is cruel. Most autistic children have sensory issues and what this means is certain sensations are unbearable because they register in the same part of the brain as pain. Water- swimming, showers, baths is very common in young autistic children. So autistic children and adults are not being fussy or stubborn if they refuse to go swimming.

I seem to be reading this differently to others. Im seeing it as for some reason you told DS he cant shouldnt hit people or throw things but you didnt mention the coin which (a) was the first silly action and (b) the only dangerous one so definitely the most important thing you want him to stop doing. To DHs ears that may have sounded like to you the coin incident wasnt important. Thats not what you meantor what you were saying but in the stressful situation ye were all in things get misinterpreted, i completely get what you were doing but your DH possibly understood it differently. Have a chat to him and see if ye can iron it out

Expecting your DH to let your son put himself in physical danger and ignore instructions purely so that you never have to put boundaries in place is ridiculous.

Daftasabroom is living up to their username i see ...

It’s ok to angrily tell a child to not put coins in their mouth because that is a real safety risk.
No it isn’t. You tell them nicely and explain why it’s dangerous. There’s absolutely no benefit in being angry and mean, that doesn’t teach the child anything. It’s just bullying. And an autistic child especially will just respond negatively to your anger and won’t hear the message about not eating coins.

When your son dropped the coin on the floor, your husband should have picked it up. He's treating him like an NT child who is being defiant, not a sensory seeking autistic child.

Sounds to me like your husband has an anger problem. I'd feel so anxious around someone like your husband.

Of course your son shouldn't put coins in his mouth, but there are ways of talking to people. It sounds like your husband doesn't respect any of your son's boundaries and regularly just does what he thinks is best regardless of others around him.

He's a bully.

@10LittleMonsters

This rang too many bells for my liking. I spent many years being the nice, happy peacemaker in a family which was dominated by my ex husband's failure to cope with one of our children having AS. This manifested itself as him shouting at DS to stop shouting and having meltdowns in response to DS's meltdowns (among other things).

Your husband shouldn't have forced your DS into the pool. Having been stern with DS about the coin (fair enough, though I have a pretty good idea of how he went about it), he got the result he wanted - DS took the coin out of his mouth. So what if he dropped it. That's where your husband went wrong. He escalated the situation, then got angry with your son (and you) for a situation entirely of his own making.

At some point, you will see that you are not undermining your husband: you are sticking up for your son, which someone has to do. I spent too long believing that I was undermining my ex husband and apologising to him while feeling so unhappy about what he had done. Your husband is the one in the wrong.

A PP suggested you give him a hug and you said he is not up for a hug because he's ignoring your existence. A hug is the last thing you should give him. The only person who should be feeling apologetic here is your husband.

Mine also told me I was a know-all regarding DS. Maybe I was - but I was also the parent who had far fewer problems and had made it my bloody business to work out how to be a decent parent to a child with AS. Ex husband thought it would all be solved by shouting and telling DS to "behave".

I know you won't leave him now, but for your son's sake, your husband needs to accept that he is a big part of the problem, and he needs to accept that you do, in this case, know better than he does. At the moment, you are not "on the same team". He needs to learn from you, not criticise you. Is any kind of family therapy an option? If you can't sort this out (and the coin episode is just the tip of the iceberg), your marriage is doomed. Though in that case, you would honestly be better off doing it on your own, because your son also deserves to feel safe and not to be wondering why his father has become angry with him for doing what he asked him to do.

Being angry doesn’t have to be mean or bullying. It’s like telling a child don’t run into the road or don’t touch the hob when it’s on in the moment they are trying to do it. The child who is at risk needs to hear that it is important to instantly obey- a bit of angry voice is ok in such a safety situation.

There isn’t time for asking nicely and a long discussion on why it is dangerous when it is a safety risk. Frankly with an autistic child you can freak the fuck out of them if you go into details of if you swallow the coin you have to go to A&E and have your stomach pumped. With mine, they responded positively when it was clear what was not negotiable compared to what was and a bit of anger to correct a dangerous situation quickly got them that message.

The forcing a child to go swimming- that is bullying and mean.

@SecretSunflower when did I say that? I was just trying to say to DH there was no point in being angry anymore.

I'm calm and firm. Or I try to be. But sometimes get it wrong. DH gets openly frustrated and pissed off which I don't think works in getting the message across.

But obviously neither of think he can put coins in his mouth.

Raising your voice, so it's strong and loud, isnt the same as being angry. The facial expressions are different. The neutrality of telling someone something urgently is different to the spite of being angry at someone.

I have no problem with telling my children to not walk in the road in a loud, sharp instruction. But I wouldn't scream angrily at them.

There's a difference. And being angry repeatedly at a 4 year old, who already struggles, and what should be a fun day out is just nasty and unnecessary.

Your child could choke on a coin - they won’t choke on shouting at someone! Your DH was possibly too harsh, you were possibly the opposite.
If you have a child with additional needs, it’s important to work together in order to ensure your child gets clear messages off both of you.
it’s time to sit down together and formulate a plan of how to support your child.

Your DH needs to work on his temper.

DS is four. You can explain to him, kindly, that we never put coins in our mouth as they are not clean. Coaching rather than getting angry.

Your son obviously becomes more stressed/anger with your DH's anger, hence the meltdown. Kids of that age need extreme patience and help to behave, not anger, esp. with ASD.

And your DH should never, ever force him into the water.

Talk to him when he's calm. But no, you are not being unreasonable.

I’ve only read your comments so this may have been said already. If you know your DH has difficulty with this you could have taken a slightly different approach and said something like, ‘yes, Daddy is right, we want you to be safe.’ That means you are broadly agreeing with him but not starting up the argument and tension again. You could have then swiftly moved on to another topic.

Just an observation but nobody wants to feel undermined and I can see how he may have felt that.

I think my point of resentment and maybe @Bywater will get this....but I'm doing all the work. I'm reading the books. But I'm also trying to work out how to communicate better with DH and not cause more fights (hence this thread and I've genuinely learnt stuff) but DH is indignant and sulking and won't engage really. He's always right. And I just feel why am the only one working out how to be better?