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Original poster

To think that this FLY business is just another way of trying to convince women that service is what they are meant for?

452 replies

madamez · 16/02/2008 10:54

We've had house-work-is-what-FAther-Xmas-made-women-for.
We've had housework is the standard on which a woman's morals are judged.
Now we have housework as therapy: FInally Loving Yourself. What's loving about knocking yourself out with drudgery? Surely it's more self-loving to say, bollocks to doing more than the minimum, mess is no big deal and my time is far too precious to wipe skirting boards twice a day?

OP posts:
MrsMattie · 17/02/2008 10:40

How many men use FlyLady, though? How many men get that worked up about organising their household? Really? I think perhaps madamez has a valid point

Simply · 17/02/2008 10:41

Well put PurplePillow.

I'm leaving this thread alone now and I don't think I'll bother with another of your threads madamez as I don't think you actually read and try to understand the responses you get. If you read the posts you receive in reply and try to understand them, then you can post your measured reply and further questions in order for us to understand you and answer again. It's impossible to reason with someone who won't even read and take on board the responses they get without repeating their original thoughts once again.

TheMadHouse · 17/02/2008 10:42

Policywonk It is hard to influence a debat when we are not really having one. Madamz has made her mind up and isnt even responding to any that make other valid points

policywonk · 17/02/2008 10:43

The politics of housework is a very vaild discussion to be having on a mainly female forum. I'm genuinely sorry if some FLY posters, particularly those living with depression, are upset by anything said on this thread, but that's not a reason to close down the debate.

If you don't think this is a worthwhile or interesting debate, you can always ignore it.

I think some of you have made very valid points about the FLY system and how it works - you've certainly made me better informed about it.

policywonk · 17/02/2008 10:45

MadHouse - if your aim is to get madamez to come on here and say 'I hold my hands up, you're all right and I'm wrong', then you're going to be frustrated. I've sharply disagreed with madamez on other topics before now, and I know this to be true.

I just think that there have been some rather unpleasant personal attacks on her here (telling her to 'piss off', saying that she must have OCD).

TheMadHouse · 17/02/2008 10:46

Mrs Mattie Just because there isnt any on our Fly thread doesnt mean that there isnt any. This is Mumsnet and dads are in the minority.

Why not send her an e-mail and ask her.

ludaloo · 17/02/2008 10:49

Ahhh but Policywonk this is where you are wrong!
Madamez has started a thread about FLY..and has made a statement that all women who do FLY "are being convinced that service is all they are good for"
That's not the point of FLY at all.

FLY isn't trying to convince women that service is all we are good for for heaven's sake! FLY is helping those of us who have chosen to follow it, to do a job well and do it to the best of our abilities and to feel good about doing it.
Being a mother, and running a home can be one of the most rewarding experiences you'll ever come across, so why should we have to feel bad about it?
I went to University and acheived a Masters Degree, to be good at Environmental and Developmental Education.
You can't go to university to be good at being a mum and a wife and running a home now can you!?
It isn't about being a "Stepford Wife" and conforming to the rules set by "White Men"
Its about helping yourself to do your best.

TheMadHouse · 17/02/2008 10:50

I have not and will not make any attack personal and I am not looking for OK you are right, what I am hoping to achieve is some balanace in the thread. A reasoned debate is fine, But Madamez makes sweeping statements all the time.

I am not a subservant little woman bcause I clean. I think that that is the main issue. Let her stand up for herself Policywonkl she is more than capable from what I have seen. If you agree with her pricipals then fine put your point forward and I will respond as well as I can

Tortington · 17/02/2008 10:51

well this is the main function of a woman lets face it. womens feet are smaller, they can get next to the sink with more ease. they are usually in lesser paid jobs - so thier careers don't matter really all the moan moan moan "my dh wont help with the dishwaher!" well in my day it was old underpants from 1943 and a block of cabolic soap - count yourselves lucky.

Flylady gives the encouragement every woman neds to maintain the perfect house and the perfect life, order, order, order is the watchword of the day - friday is "sort out the bedside cabinet day" oh how i look forward to it

FunkyGlassSlipper · 17/02/2008 10:51

Sorry disappeared as was doing cutting out with DD1

Madamez - I agree with you that the cumulative history of making women feel they have sole responsibility for the housework is not good. However, up until the 40s when women were called on for service during the war and had to become independent housework was mainly the woman's sole responsibility while the man went out to work.

Now that the gender roles within the household are much more intertwined it is more complex.

I used to work full-time. I had a cleaner and wouldnt have entertained the idea of doing all the housework. Then I had children and I chose to stay at home. With that 'career choice' I take it as my responsibility to keep the house relatively tidy. DH still cooks, and does other stuff. I am starting part-time work and with that the balance of housework will shift between DH and I.

Not all women are in that situation anf there are gender stereotypes in housework.

The flylady system itself is about taking small steps to get on track with housework. It is aimed at stay at home mothers who predominantly see housework as their responsibility. Therefore those that work wouldnt necessarily get the same out of it. And those that have chosen lazy-arse husbands wont get the same out of it.

The debate here has got quite confused over several issues - gender stereotypes, submissive hosuewives, and exploitation of the female gender. I'm interested to know what you think is the key issue with the fly system.

Original poster
madamez · 17/02/2008 10:51

ONce again, I do not think that people who find a system of household organisation helpful are stupid or wrong: it's up to you. I just despise the tone and attitude of the site (and similar things) that suggest that doing menial work, rather than being able to afford to pay for someone else to do it, or simply deciding that it doesn;t need doing anyway, is somehow therapeutic. Excessive housework (anything more than about 15 minutes every other day, really) is not only tiring and pointless but unhealthy: all those antibacterial sprays are damaging children's immune systems let alone the ozone layer.
And I don;t think it's at all unfeminist to pay a female cleaner: while cleaning is low-paid work it's not the worst of low-paid jobs, and there is a big difference between cleaning someone else's house for an agreed payment during an agreed time and cleaning the house you live in for subsistence and the occasional bunch of flowers, and being on domestic duty 24/7.

OP posts:
TheMadHouse · 17/02/2008 10:53

perfection if definatly not the aim. It is just doing someting it better than doing nothing

policywonk · 17/02/2008 10:53

ludaloo I completely agree with most of that. I'm a SAHM myself and think it's an important and under-recognised job.

But, to split hairs, she doesn't say (at least not in the thread title) that FLYers are convinced that they are fit only for service: she says that the FLYlady seeks to convince them that they are fit only for service - ie, she is attacking the system, not the FLYers.

If she is wrong about the purpose of the system then of course that's a valid point. I'm just objecting to the personal attacks! Mind you, I don't know why. I never get any thanks from her...

ludaloo · 17/02/2008 10:54

MrsMattie I know a lot of men who get just as worked up about being SAHD's as the rest of us! I have even suggested to one of the dads at our toddler group, that he comes and has a look...but as it is called "MUMSnet" I guess he feels a bit out numbered!
He is a lovely chap, who's wife works abroad for weeks at a time, and he has to raise his 2 small boys and organise the housework...and also run their holiday apartments. Totally their decision to run their lives in that way.....doesn't mean he isn't in need of a few pointers here and there.

policywonk · 17/02/2008 10:56

MadHouse - my point is, too many posters (on this thread and lots of others) think it is OK to make ad hominem attacks instead of addressing the points under debate. I'm not sticking up for madamez in order to suck up to her, I'm saying that the FLYers who have made personal attacks on her should stick to the points - and also, that this is a legitimate discussion, and I am irritated by those FLYers who have basically told us that we should not even be debating this topic.

FunkyGlassSlipper · 17/02/2008 10:57

I agree that the tone of the site is very poor. She is practically evangelical about housework. Most people on MN who follow the system ignore the tone to be honest.

Madamez - I think we actually agree we just express diffently

By being organised (yes, under the fly system) I now spend about 15 mins a day tidying the house, and then another 10 mins sorting the washing and dishwasher. I dont do much else as I have better things to do.

TheMadHouse · 17/02/2008 10:58

MadameZ do you have anything to back up the fact that 15 minutes is all you need to do each day.

Surley this would vary depending one the size of your house, number of childre, aminals, if you have a tumbledryer, dishwasher etc far to many variables to account for here.

Again you are making the point that anyone who does more than your prescribed amount of housework is doing pointless work and only doing it for therapy.

I am not on domestic duty 24/7 I have a partner that pulls hius weight, as do most woman I know nowerdays. He is out of the house nor often, therefore, he does left now, but when we noth worked we did approx equal. Your issue is with Men not FLY

FunkyGlassSlipper · 17/02/2008 10:59

And agree with policywonk - we should all leave the personal attacks aside.

I'm not ignoring everyone else by the way. I'm just finding madamez is sticking to the debate - and actually I find that quite interesting.

being a drudgy housewife I havent had a proper debate for a while

Original poster
madamez · 17/02/2008 10:59

Policywonk: Thanks for your support I shall wear it and think of you...

OP posts:
FunkyGlassSlipper · 17/02/2008 11:01

Ah, just seen the time. Have to go out for MRI scan but will be back later. Please all play nicely until I return

ludaloo · 17/02/2008 11:02

policywonk...what ever the thread title does or doesn't actually say...we will go with "FLYlady seeks to convince them that they are fit only for service" if it suits you...
That is still wrong...and is still an insult to anyone following FLY IMO! I don't think she does try to convince anyone that we are only fit for service. She is trying to help us to make our jobs a little easier. I absolutely can see that some of her site is very OTT and "Fluffy" in many areas (for example I hate some of the terminology she uses...like "Home Blessing" etc.) But it doesn't make me think for one minute she wants us to all succumb to being the female drudgery of society!

Tortington · 17/02/2008 11:02

here for madamez

policywonk · 17/02/2008 11:03

There now. Was that so hard?

TheMadHouse · 17/02/2008 11:03

Policywonk - I dont have an issue with your point, but she and other have deviated of the point oo.

I agree with you personal attacks are not acceptable under any curcumstances by anyone.

Yes the site is overly evange;lical regarding housework, but I do not get sucked in to that. I do find the missions a good kick up the jacksee to do somethings that I would do on a regular basis and therefore preventing things piling up on me as they have previously.

If anything I am showing and doing this with my boys, in the hope that they like their dad drow up to do their fair share of any work. My life with my family is about being a team working together to achieve what we want out of life. At this point in time we want me to be at home with the children this means DH working, which means I do more of the housework, this will change at some point

policywonk · 17/02/2008 11:05

fair enough ludaloo. Personally I don't have an issue with FLY (now she tells us!), I just think that the politics of housework is interesting/important.

Hope your MRI isn't for anything serious, Funky.