To think that this FLY business is just another way of trying to convince women that service is what they are meant for?

[madamez]

We've had house-work-is-what-FAther-Xmas-made-women-for.
We've had housework is the standard on which a woman's morals are judged.
Now we have housework as therapy: FInally Loving Yourself. What's loving about knocking yourself out with drudgery? Surely it's more self-loving to say, bollocks to doing more than the minimum, mess is no big deal and my time is far too precious to wipe skirting boards twice a day?

Would it buggery.

no pilicy it wouldn't but that is because it was a lady who devised it through her own need to not want to lib=ve in a shithole but not want to be toed to the kitchen with rubber gloves on all day
its about realising that as the person whom most of the housekeeping falls onto that she can find a way to make iot less tedious and annoying and therefore enjoy her life
I hated living in a shithole but it was part of my 'work' to try and keep the house trotting along nicely
fly helped me see that I didn't need ot be a slave to it

also I ignore all the religious twaddle that comes along with it as the flylady herself is awfully religious but I can ignore that so its fine

so much for walking away lol

I completely disagree with all madamez' posts. I don't knock myself out with drudgery. I don't wipe skirting boards twice a day. Can you do a link to where it suggests/states that this should be done on the FLY site? I think not.

If you read the FLY threads madamez, you'd see that it's a friendship group basically. I use it for friendship and yes, motivation to get things done sooner rather than later so that I can go and do something more interesting knowing that those jobs aren't waiting for me when I get home. TrinityRhino's posts are spot on.

agree with TR. you have missed the point of the program.
Flylady does not say you must do the housework or else you are not a proper woman. She doesn't even say you have to do the housework. What she does say is, if your house is a tip and its making you unhappy, here is an easy system to follow to help you out.

there is no compulsion to it whatsoever. rather, it says if you are having difficulties, here is something that could help you.

and she does say that everyone in the house should help and gives ways for that to be done as well. it is not a woman only program by any means. however it is unlikely to be on a men's only forum as most men are not at home all day after a child is born and are therefore not living in the mess all day.

hello- I have raised this as an issue on the flylady facebook page

I do think that there is a message in there which is dodgy from a feminist standpoint; some of the emails have made me think 'hang on'

but I also think that there are a lot of women who are really struggling with issues around feeling a failure in their homes, and that flylady has helped them a lot. There are a lot of women living in traditional family situations (by traditional I mean the old-style He Goes To Work, I Keep House) and just want to do that better, like any job, and flylady provides the kind of support that is not available anywhere else

I use her system; but I use it just as a system to keep house, not as a system to live by - both dh and I do the jobs

"my time is far too precious to wipe skirting boards twice a day"

but hold on there a second madamez love

it seems to me that flylady is also the antidote to those madwomen you see on mn and in rl who do wipe their skirting boards twice a day

really if you look at her programme it is about doing the bare minimum, and the message is that perfection is not going to happen and it is just something to beat yourself up about

flylady seems to me to be about just getting the basics done so you can live your life

I have never ever ever ever in 2 years of getting her emails read anything that asks me to wipe my skirting boards, not even once a week, let alone twice a day

V interesting, Cappster.

I personally do find the exhortations to housework not something I wish to receive, though.

And it's statistically obvious that women do do the bulk of the housework, which I find deeply objectionable.

I cannot remember doing any housework whatsoever during either of my maternity leaves.

I'm with you on the beauty regime crap (well not that I think owt is wrong with looking after yerself, but I find myself increasingly enraged by the collusion endemic in women's mangazine industry that insinuates that spendin £35 on a primer or a buckwheat and carrot scrub is normal.)

Can't agree on the housework issue though.Therei s pride to be had in keeping and maintaining a nice home (whatever your sex) and doing it in the most time efficient way possible.

Dh and I were discussing it at great length last night.No different to business.You set up a system after which it maintains itself with minimal input.What is the problem?

Ah, the lovely Madamez again, winding us up and watching us go...

I live in a flat with three kids. My DH does not mind mess or dirt and would happily allow things to descend into chaos before addressing it. I do not wish to live like this but am not a natural housekeeper. Fly helps me stick to a routine and maintain some semblance of control.
I do not possess skirting boards, let alone wipe them twice a day.

One of my children has a chronic illness. Routine and cleanliness are VITAL for her health and Fly helps me with that.

I agree with all that TR has said, she describes the idea of FLY perfectly.

My mood is strongly affected by my environment and therefore feeling over-whelmed by tasks which need doing really gets me down. Since joining the FLY thread here (I haven't subscribed to the emails so have no idea what goes on there) I am able to manage the jobs better and therefore feel better in myself leading to being happier and yes, if you like finally loving myself more!

It's also a great thread for friendship and support in many other ways. I have made great friends on the FLY threads

Are you supposed to wipe skirting boards? Ever? I mean nobody except the cats ever has them at eye level, surely?

And I honestly do not think one can consider housework in a non-gendered way. (Or cooking, actually.) Women overwhelmingly are the ones doing the housework and/or being judged on the state of their homes. Just look at all the comments - on MN as well - about 'oh well, men don't notice'...

I find that when down,having an orderly efficient home is the first step to restoring eqwuilibrium.

I have been through a living hell recently and my house has never sparkled so much.

Janni, if cleanliness is essential for your daughter's health surely it is her father's equal responsibility for providing that?

I think of it in a non gendered way MI.
My dh is the one who is (as I type) doing the dishes, dealing with dirty clothes and reorganising the fridge.

He is no fleece wearing tampon buyer either but a big Welsh rugby player from a very traditional rural home.

I think we can all agree that it is desirable to do a certain amount of housework to keep the place sanitary - and when you have small children it can take quite a lot of work to achieve even this minimum.

However, most women feel the need to do more than this: to have a home that is pretty, fashionable, artificially fragrant, de-cluttered... blah blah.

Most men, in my experience, do not give a bugger about anything above and beyond the basic sanitation level (although I know there are some exceptions).

That's why FLY would never exist on a male site: men simply do not see the state of their homes as being a reflection of their worthiness as a human being. Most of them don't even notice the state of their homes, so long as there is no evident vermin.

Lots of posters have said that the cleanliness or tidiness of their domestic environments affects their state of mind. This is true for me too. However, again, I very much doubt that you will find many men who say this.

Yes, but I think your partner (and mine) is untypical. Women do overwhelmingly do housework and are associated with housework. Ditto cooking. There is this enormous amount of work we're expected to do - and in many cases do do - on account of our sex. Which eats into the rest of our life and our time. So many women post on MN that they are exhausted from doing housework and associated chores.

(That was to Moondog, btw!)

Fair point MI but why are they doing it and why are they setting up home with lazy fuckers?
They really need to shoulder some of the blame for that as opposed to martyr themselves.

There is definite a tranche of womanhood that revels in masochistic mutterings of how draining it is to live with a useless man.

Get rid I say.

And I find it extremely depressing that a lot of women use FLYlady and similar tactics as a way of making sure they can cope with the housework, not as a tactic for getting the other adult in their house to pull his weight.

Errrrwell yes, I agree.

Then of course there is the Burchill theory that "housework is just clearing up after yourself"

That woman needs a dose of childcare...

And unloyal as it may sound, I don't know many women who really put a great deal of efoort into what might be loosely termed 'homemaking'. I really don't and I mix professionally and personally with women of all ages and backgrounds.

The best cook and homemaker I know around here is our MP who is a single divorced 50 something man. I have lived next door for him for years and his Christmas present to me was a pot of home made chutney.