To think that this FLY business is just another way of trying to convince women that service is what they are meant for?

[madamez]

We've had house-work-is-what-FAther-Xmas-made-women-for.
We've had housework is the standard on which a woman's morals are judged.
Now we have housework as therapy: FInally Loving Yourself. What's loving about knocking yourself out with drudgery? Surely it's more self-loving to say, bollocks to doing more than the minimum, mess is no big deal and my time is far too precious to wipe skirting boards twice a day?

lol Dr Lurker...when we lived out in Cyprus I was in teh wonderful position of having a cleaner...twice a week...and what did I do...I tidied up the evening before, because I felt I couldn't leave to much of a bad mess, lol....

lol Desi
You been at the cooking sherry?

3
it's like I say to my best mate- what do you think the cleaner is going to actually do if you leave the dishcloth out or somesuch- flame you to the community at large?

She said she didn't know, she just couldn't bear the shame...

lol...I so understand her, lol...

[pondering if I should join the FLY thread, cause would do me some good I think....I love a clean and tidy house, I really do...I just can't ever keep it that way...I get my big clean up bug and slack wihtin the first week, cos it's to depressing, as within a day all the good work is undone...it feels such a tedious task...sigh...I HATE HOUSEWORK!!!!!!

I love a clean and tidy house too but not enough to actually do anything to achieve one.

There is no point, you might as well wait until tomorrow when the mess will have reestablished itself anyway.

I had a takeaway tonight so no washing up, only recycling (groan)

lol....drlurker...that is pretty much how we are working...
hehe...and my best excuse for taking it easy on the housework is...tadaa...my dh said this week...you know, you are a much nicer person when you don't clean...meaning, that I then don't get so stressed out about any mess created....lol...

moondog, Flylady is tonnes of lists! That's why it works!

'the first thing everyday is to put on make up' - to clean the farking house? I rest my case. This is not a matter of handy hints for minimising the amount of time wasted on repetitive pointless drudgery, it's about telling women that they will be happier if they accept servitude.

I have resisited posting on this thread until now, but feel the need to say my bit and then buzz off back to the comfort of the fly thread.

Fly works for me. I am not a naturally tidy person and I have two under 3. Things were getting on top of me, I was suffering from PND, new house and two irrate children.

I joined a fly baby thread, rather than the web site, so I dont get e-mails and followed the baby steps.

It is not about having a shinny sink, it is about a realalistic, achieveable and interchangable set of routines for the regular tasks required to keep my home ticking over. My home is not a palace, but it can be tidy and everyone does their bit.

The boys tidy their toys and the 3 year old helps make his bed. DH can do the routines and does his bits of them everyday and if I am out he does the other parts.

It is not about gender specific roles or about being great, it is about being just good enough to get by. I can not afford a cleaner, if I was working and could pay one then yes I would consider it. I am not bring my boys up to think that women clean, cook and tidy. I am bring them up to understand that we all work together to get things done for the good of the family. It a clean house better for them - hell yes, they know which box Buzz Lightyear is in or where there DVD's are and they automatically replace them.

If you dont agree then thats your perogative, but do not judge untill you have tried it. The world is full of different people and differnt stroke for different folks. I do what I do as it suits me and my family.

I am a supportive and understanding person, but I do not understand why us mums constanly take every opportunity to pull to peices other peoples lifes and methods of living. Espeically something so harmless as cleaning, do you not have anything better to be getting on with, perhaps lieing in that unmade bed. I much prefer getting in to a nice crisp made one myself

madamez you are really getting to me

farking listen

It for people who cannot cope with all that YOU just do naturally

the putting make up on is for ME to feel better about being alive
not to do the fucking housework

Don't rise to it TR
Madamez actually probably has some OCD about housework...and pretending to live in a shit heap on here is doing her some good

A whole website dedicated to bombarding you with emails reminding you to clear your surfaces and polish your fucking silver. It's a load of bollox.

I second TheMadHouse and TrinityRhino. I don't have a problem with people "not getting" FLY principles or starting a thread to find out about FLY. Now that there are so many posts on this thread explaining why people follow the FLY system, can you madamez accept the answers you are given and if you want to know more, why not just say " Why is the first thing every day "put on make-up"" rather than "'the first thing everyday is to put on make up' - to clean the farking house? I rest my case. This is not a matter of handy hints for minimising the amount of time wasted on repetitive pointless drudgery, it's about telling women that they will be happier if they accept servitude." Just ask the questions you have in a measured manner and you'll get your answers without winding people up.

As I've said earlier, I follow flylady and it works for me.

A message to those on here from the MN Flylady thread - I think the comments on here aren't saying that you/we are total drudges or being sucked in (and if they are then shame on you for being so judgemental). They are aimed at the principle of flylady - which is a commercial website telling people how to do something which comes naturally to some people and not to others. Trinity is right in that unless you have struggled in this area then you wont 'get it'. Dont take this thread personally as there are more important things to get worked up about.

To those that are criticising please be aware that some people come on MN because they are struggling with something in their life. If getting the house tidy makes things better for them then who are we to criticise as surely that is the first step for them in taking control of their life - something which feminism advocates.

A debate on the merits of the flylady website & system is actually quite interesting. But taking snippets such as the make up thing without actually understanding that that is one tiny example of doing something to make yourself feel more able to cope is misinformed debate IMO

well said funkyglassslipper

FGS: YHes, my problem is with the attitude of flylady, not necessarily the methods of organising your housework: basically the whle of human history has been about one class of people (men, particularly white men) persuading another class of people that all the shitwork is their responsibility by cosmic design - hence this utter BULLSHIT that women notice and mind untidiness more than men do simply because they don't have penises. SO telling women that doing housework will cure depression is not only unfeminist but could actually be harmful: if you're depressed because you are isolated, lonely and broke, then drudgery will not make you feel any better, it will make you feel that this is all you are fit for.

Yes I agree FunkyGlassSlipper.

Anyone reading this who wants to join us on the daily FLY thread (on the Good Housekeeping topic), there is a welcome waiting for you. That goes for people (and I know there are some) who lurk rather than post, too.

No madamez. You're wrong. Living in a nice, clean house can be the first step to sorting out other areas of your life which may then lead you out of the deprssion you feel (along with support, counselling or whatever). Please read all the posts on this thread (the one you started!) and you'll see this i.e. TheMadHouse's post earlier this morning. Do you want reasoned debate or not? If not, why not?

madamez
she is not telling us to do housework to beat depression

she is telling us how wed can do the housework THAT WE WANT TO DO but ar having trouble doing it BECAUSE of deprtession

oh piss off
I can imagine you sitting at your computer thinking up the mext annoying thing to type regardless of whether you agree with what your saying.....

I don't agree with everything madamez is saying, but I do see where she is coming from.

Madamez - great to see you didnt even read my thread. I am not a repressed little housewifey, who cleans to beat my depression.

I was depressed and felt that everything was too difficult to achive and I didnt know where to start. I have a loving DH who paid for a cleaner to come and give the house a thorough once over and then using the flylady system we keep on top of things. Not just me, but all of us.

I dont have make up on my day to day routine, I am so beautiful I dont need it

Oh I love your sweeping statement that I am depressed because I isolated, lonely and broke, actually I am anything from lonely and isolated, broke maybe, but trhat is my business not yours.

I really do think this is nothing about cleaning and fly more about that fact that you are a slattern and trying to justify it as feminism

I personnally have not read any of the FLY threads but any thing that helps PEOPLE(not just women) feel better about their surrounding is a great thing ime

If you do not agree with FLY fine DON'T read it and leave the people who do alone!

It's their lives and choices and i think you are incredibly mean to keep slating them

I don't think anyone on this thread has slated the people who do FLY. There are some posters who are slating the system. I know it's frustrating when you're trying to influence a discussion and people don't appear to be taking your points on board, but some of you are being much ruder about Madamez than she has been (personally) about any of you.

Madamez...just out of interest, what do you do?
Are you at home with the kids all day?
Do you work part time/full time?
Do you have a partner/dh who works...or stays at home?
I take it you have a cleaner?

I think you have to realise, that whether society has made us this way or not...a lot of women (especially me) feel the need to raise their own children and run their home how they see fit.
FLY is just a little pointer in the right direction for a lot of us. Some people may follow it to the letter...that's their choice.
If you had a job in mechanics for example, you would probably have to train to do that job, or might self teach with books etc.
Nobody is trained to be a mother or a wife, you either can do it with great ease...or you can't.
There is nothing wrong with having a bit of help to do the job you want to do now is there?

I also know several families who do it the other way around, where the are SAHD's and their wives go out to work...and they would agree whole heartidly that sometimes they may need some help along the way.
You are missing the fact that in most families it is the women's choice to be at home...it is what works best for them.
Some men stay at home to raise a family...and that is what suits them.

So you can go on and try to mock us all, but you won't win with your sweeping comments and false generalisations, because we all have our own reasons for FLY.

What i meant by "slating them " was not individuals persay but more the fact that some people find these threads invaluable and for anyone to say that its stupid or a waste of time or whatever is mean.

It's an indivials choice and if you don't like it or agree with it then fine but a lot of people seem to find it invaluable in their lives.