To think that this FLY business is just another way of trying to convince women that service is what they are meant for?

[madamez]

We've had house-work-is-what-FAther-Xmas-made-women-for.
We've had housework is the standard on which a woman's morals are judged.
Now we have housework as therapy: FInally Loving Yourself. What's loving about knocking yourself out with drudgery? Surely it's more self-loving to say, bollocks to doing more than the minimum, mess is no big deal and my time is far too precious to wipe skirting boards twice a day?

But women expect it of other women too and I've also heard such comments from women to children too including my mother. HAving skimmed this thread you can see comments about people being judged on teh cleanliness of their house and it being the woman automatically blamed.
I really dont get why women dont simply chill out about housework rather than go to town on it and then moan about how hard done by they are. Unless of course they enjoy it.

Quattrocentro Thanks for your post in reply to mine. Sorry, I should've said that I work part time (less than 20 hours a week) and yes, I get paid more per hour than the minimum wage but I don't earn £10 an hour and that's what each cleaner I know of in this area charges.

hercules1 - 'I really dont get why women dont simply chill out about housework rather than go to town on it and then moan about how hard done by they are. '

I think it's because a lot of women don't have the necessary steel ovaries/self-confidence.

I don't think there is anything wrong with men and women serving each other in a marriage, not that I'm an expert as I'm divorced. We never had a situation where I did more than my ex husband. When we didn't have a cleaner we divided tasks up (and both always worked full time). Even in the early 80s when we married women with any sense ensured they didn't take on too much at home. They are silly idiots if they do. It's different if one works and the other doesn't of course.

As I earn quite a few multiples of the minimum wage I do pay someone to do cleaning and washing but even so there are still a lot of times when I'm clearing stuff up.

There is certainly a US extreme fundamentalist Christian movement which probably has a lot in common with the position of muslim women in rural pakistan that says women do these jobs and men don't.

Well I'd rather dust a shelf than hoover a car out any day

Oh, maybe it's just me. I just don't get all this feminist stereotyping stuff, and never did. If you're immune to it (as I obviously am), then it can't bother you. I can't see the point of getting all intellectual about it. If I thought for one minute my dh wasn't pulling his weight, I'd say 'Oi, get off your arse, you fat fucker. There's washin'-up to be done.'

How do you define "leisure time" though? Is it only buggering off on your own to do stuff you want to do? or does going out for a walk/ out to the park with the kids count?

But it isnt just the father doing it. I was brought up in a traditional household despite my mother working long hours outside the home but they both firmly believed housework was still for women. That doesnt equate to me believing the same thing. In fact my parents believed lots of things I disagree with.

i do prefer to live in a tidy house - it is no show home!!!!! it looks lived in.

i do housework each day but so does dh and i also have far more leisure time cos i am more social and he prefers to stay in.

we are a partnership and a fair one especially compared to some couples we know.

i still like the mechanics of fly though

I don't know how they define it for academic studies UD, but I'd guess it means time free from childcare - that's still a 'job', even though it can also be pleasurable.

DP and I go away a couple of times a year with a bunch of uni friends, most of whom now have their own children. I am truly astonished that among almost all the couples, the default position is for the woman to be looking after the kids/deciding what's for dinner, while the man sits on the sofa reading or chatting or watching the telly. DP always comes away from these things with a wistful look in his eye. It's the same when we go away with his brothers (two of whom have wives and children) - one of his brothers seems to share things 50/50 with his DW, but the other just seems to have an arrangement with his DW that she does it ALL, even though they both work full time.

good thread though

i am off to shine my sink!! though i do not have shoes on (bad bad)

I think flylady is very enabling to partners/ teenage children in terms of the attitude that the mother/wife should be the primary housekeeper

but I also think that the flylady emails are aimed primarily at women who actually do want to look after their house but do not know where to start; who perhaps have let their self-esteem go so low that they have become a bit lost - if you follow the system to the letter, for the first week all you have to do is get yourself up and get yourself dressed. I think that is indicative of the kind of women that flylady sees herself helping

I ignore a good deal of what flylady sends out because I just want to use her system - dividing the home into zones, setting routines (for the whole family) - because my mother was a hopeless housekeeper (and single mother, before anyone thinks that I am not mentioning my father because of deep-set gender conditioning) who passed on no information of any worth in this area, and I wanted a simple way of doing it

So I don't read the emails with the psycho-babble - however I think it is important to realise that while we are all educated and intelligent feminists, bursting with self esteem, there are many women living in rooms full of chaos and dust who are very depressed by it

I remember watching Anthea Turner: Perfect Housewife and a woman on there was crying; she was a SAHM and was upset that she was a dreadful housewife and didn't know how to keep things going; she had very low self esteem and achieved very little with her day

and Anthea said she should be able to introduce herself to people by saying "I'm a housewife, and I'm a damned good one"

if that's the job you do you should be able to be proud of doing a good job, just as you should be in any job you do outside the home - I think that is completely compatible with feminism

I still agree with cappuccino.

Now I'm leaving this thread as life is too short to be discussing this

LOL @ "DP always comes away from these things with a wistful look in his eye" - I'm the same (although I know I really shouldn't be) when I hear about the stuff other men get away with!

I'd still love to know where they get this 5:1 leisure time ratio from. There aren't enough hours in the week, surely?!

I don't intend to go down the route of challenging an academic study with anecdotal evidence, because I know the pitfalls of that. But at my DCs' school, 80% of the parents doing both the drop-off and the pick-up are the mums, and I know they sure as hell aren't doing housework and/or looking after small child(ren) all day. In general, it's the mothers I know who seem to have more time to themselves during the week. Even if they only get two hours a day, that's already 10 hours for the man to make up at weekends just to make it equal.

Also agree that women expect it of other women. MIL comments on dust in the house and makes it clear (without saying it outright) that she thinks it's DW who is letting the side down, not me - even though we both work and I'm the more flexible one.

"I think flylady is very enabling to partners/ teenage children in terms of the attitude that the mother/wife should be the primary housekeeper"

Say what?

UD - that's only true for SAHPs where all the children are at school at least part-time though.And not including those who care for ill or elderly relatives.

And I've waited 6½ years for my 2 hours (so called) free time!

Agree iwth a lot of what policywonk has said.

enabling was a negative word Quat

and UQD I hate school pick-up/drop-off

so often I send dh to scamper round town taking kids to nursery/ school while I clean up the kitchen

I know exactly who is drawing the short straw there

Agree with Capp that there's nothing wrong with making a good job of housekeeping, if that is your job (ie, so long as you're not also expected to hold down a full-time paid job out of the home).

But I do still think that women internalise this stuff more than men do - again, how many times have you heard a man say 'I get really depressed if the house is in a mess' - not just irritated, but actually emotionally affected. Maybe it has to do with asserting control over your environment - something that women still struggle to do in comparison with men.

UD - I know that the factor of 5 thing is almost unbelievable. I'm supposed to be working at the mo (while DP is looking after the kids but making no attempt whatsoever to wash up after lunch, if you're interested...) so I will have a google later on and try to find something more definitive.

I imagine the factor 5 thing is reflecting women who mostly do the childcare at weekends while both hold down full time positions?

I have a friend who always wants to pop over and see us on a weekend, because her dh "needs a break" from working hard all week and doesn't want to look after their two pre-school age children . I do wonder when she actually gets her break...

wasn't doubting you, policywonk - just interested to know what criteria they use.
i.e.
if person A takes the kids to the park while person B does the cleaning, does that count towards person A's leisure time?

if person A has the children while person B works at home, say upstairs, but person A spends it slumped on sofa watching DVD while kids entertain selves, does that count as childcare and therefore not their leisure time?

My DH believes the answer to housework is a cleaner. That is what he would do, were he the one at home rather than out working. He cannot understand why I don't feel the same. I am distinctly uncomfortable with employing someone to clean up my and my family's mess. To me the solution would be shared chores but I have so far failed to make this work so do most of it myself. When we lived together pre-children neither of us did very much housework at all and it didn't matter.

now Ruby makes a lot of sense