To think that this FLY business is just another way of trying to convince women that service is what they are meant for?

[madamez]

We've had house-work-is-what-FAther-Xmas-made-women-for.
We've had housework is the standard on which a woman's morals are judged.
Now we have housework as therapy: FInally Loving Yourself. What's loving about knocking yourself out with drudgery? Surely it's more self-loving to say, bollocks to doing more than the minimum, mess is no big deal and my time is far too precious to wipe skirting boards twice a day?

But good point about Fly being used in lieu of living with a fully operational adult.

Is Fly free or is it trying to flog tie in products?

I object to the way obvious shit is packaged and sold back to us (cleaning ,cooking and so on.)

UD - as a tame male - do you feel that the state of your home (over and above basic hygiene/offensive smells) affects your self-perception?

I think this is all very 1960's feminism madamez. Isn't feminism today about supporting choices, not about judgements on what women want to do.

Why is housework per se worthless?

I like looking after my house (except the oven) and did FLY for a while because it helped me declutter and spend less time on the drudgery. It saved my life when I emigrated - got my house straight to sell and decluttered to pack up.

I still do the sink thing, you can pick and mix what you do on FLY.

I think there is an inverted snobbery going on that says 'look at me, my house isn't clean which proves I'm an intellectual, creative person, I have higher things to think of...'

pmsl at a couple doing fly together

Yes Choccie I agree.
Thus supposed feminists end up sneering at their sisters for having the temerity to take pride in a job and to do it well.

I'm not sneering. I'm saying that women do too much housework, overall. And yes I am saying that from a feminist perspective.

I don't FLY but I do get the emails ..... and delete them. I'm tidy in work since I bin anything I don't want but I can't apply to this my home.

Flying is a system of housework and you can either choose to follow it, male or female, or ignore it. Have to say that my x bf would have laughed his socks off since his favourite phrase about me was 'bookwormmum-ing a room' - putting my stamp on the room ie making it messy. Handbag on the table, coat on the chair, shoes on the floor. etc. Twas tidy to me .

I'm not sneering - I'm as in thrall to this stuff as most other women are. I'm just questioning it from a feminist perspective.

I often nag my DP to do more than the basics - ie, to de-clutter, deodorise, prettify. He just says, 'Why?', and I don't have a good answer for him, beyond 'Because otherwise I feel ashamed to invite people in to the house'.

which do you think is worse? To invite friends to a messy house, or not invite them at all? I tend to go for the former, as we'd have no social life whatsoever otherwise, but do worry if people feel insulted if the house is grubby.

oranges - I hover between the two! Sometimes don't invite people when I'd like to (and end up taking advantage of their hospitality instead), sometimes do invite but feel slightly ashamed, sometimes invite and spend all day running around tidying/cleaning while DS2 is parked in front of the telly and pacified with crisps.

Also I have some friends whose homes are about the same as mine, mess-wise, so for them I tend not to stress so much.

Motherinferior - I'm always moaning on MN about my DH. I'm not defending him! He is out with the three kids now though, he has his very good points too!

I do cook nice food for people, and dim the lights. I tend to get resentful if I feel I have to tidy up furiously before people come - we have a toddler and I'm not naturaly tidy by any means. The only time I really panicked about things like ironed sheets and hand towels was when a mumsnetter came to stay. Though she was lovely and I'm sure we drank too much champagne to care.

Ironing sheets - ! That's a whole other level of tidiness, completely beyond me...

Cooking is a bit different I think, because it's creative, and can be quite tricky (especially if you're on a budget), and I find the human (female?) instinct to nurture through food more worthy than the desire to have a show-home. Although you could argue that the urge to provide a comfortable, warm domestic environment is part of the same thing.

I love the idea that I am a "tame" male...

Not sure what you mean really, pw. Do you mean the state of the house reflects me as a person/ i think we both feel that up to a point. I like it to look as if we have made an effort but there is nothing worse than going to someone's house where it looks like a show-home and you don't feel comfortable even sitting down.

UD - I think a lot of women feel that if their home isn't gussied up and generally lovely, they will be perceived (or will perceive themselves) as being incompetent or lazy - not just incompetent and lazy housework-wise, but more generally. My guess is that very few men feel like this!

Oh god, how absolutely pathetic and sad

Self-affirmation measured by clean skirting boards

I am entirely with Xenia on this. I have a cleaner (7 hours) a gardener (2 hours) an aupair and an oddjob man

I have OUTSOURCED THE LOT - except playing with the DCs and cooking

Why don't you?

PS Think FLY should be banned, or perhaps sold off to the Daily Mail

FLY is a bit bonkers though. All that sobbing (purple puddles) because you've got a clean sink. And does she mean all that stuff about "fixing your face".

Oh but MI

Women who post that they are exhausted through housework and doing chores ...

have they not made this choice themselves?

have they not colluded in their own oppression?

it is not necessary

it is true that men don't notice

for example this afternoon dh and I had a 'discussion' about a pile of glitter in the playroom which he had kept walking past

to him it was a meaningless pile of glitter; to me it was a virus poised to spread around the house

however given a flylady list of jobs he will happily clean the floor

it is about a system - if I expected him to notice the floor needed cleaning I would wait till Doomsday

But it is Monday, so the floor needs sweeping. It is the kind of language a man can understand

i have to have a tiny house, i have a chaotic mind, wouldn't find anything otherwise.

quite like cleaning, keeps me fit.

so what if people like FLY, each to their own, and i've been in houses where people just let it stench and crap piles up. it's not nice.

"Most men, in my experience, do not give a bugger about anything above and beyond the basic sanitation level (although I know there are some exceptions)."

I don't often disagree with policywonk but on this occasion I'll make an exception!

I don't have particularly high expectations but there is a point where dust/clutter gets too much and I have to sort it. I reach that point before my DW unfortunately. If we have people coming I do want the place to be tidy, so I suppose that I do think our home reflects how we are as people. [looks round the shit tip room and wonders what it's saying about me right now]

Maybe I have a particularly 'tame' cohort of beta male friends, but they all seem to cook and clean more than their lazy arse partners.

Mind you I'm delighted to finally discover what 'Fly Lady' is. Like the 'polish the taps and hoover' advice. I do that.

Quattro - if I could afford it I absolutely would!

I am liking the sound of your DW DaDaDa.

Flylady is quite clear that she thinks housewok is women's work and that grumbling that your husband doesn't do enough is unreasonable. And the religious streak is pretty prominent. There is, I think, one decent piece of advice in the whole caboodle which is about baby steps. And 15 minutes at a time. That's actually two pieces of advice. I thought it was pretty unbelievable actually. All those testimonials from women weeping because their laundry baskets were under control. And those foul recipes from the Dinner Lady or whatever she was called.