To think that this FLY business is just another way of trying to convince women that service is what they are meant for?

[madamez]

We've had house-work-is-what-FAther-Xmas-made-women-for.
We've had housework is the standard on which a woman's morals are judged.
Now we have housework as therapy: FInally Loving Yourself. What's loving about knocking yourself out with drudgery? Surely it's more self-loving to say, bollocks to doing more than the minimum, mess is no big deal and my time is far too precious to wipe skirting boards twice a day?

I had a man email me yesterday ( married, supposedly unhappily who had no business emailing me but that's another topic) who amongst other things was complaining about his wife's low standards of housekeeping. His mother was good housework and his parents' family wasn't. It does kind of follow through. My house is much cleaner than my mother's was (and after 13 years working full time she then was a housewife but not interested in the domestic cleaning very much). I'm cleaner - why is that? Perhaps just because I like things to be tidy, a natural instinct for some people male and female but not for others.

It must be pretty annoying to marry a housewife and find she can't even keep house properly. Not only are you forced as a man to keep her for the next 40 years but you're not even getting the cleaning services in return. Let's hope she's good in bed to make up I suppose.

you need to email him the flylady link Xenia, so he can pass it on to his wife

alternatively get him to give you her email address and then you can write to tell her to get a better paid job than him and tell him to stop disrespecting her by emailing other women to complain that she can't dust properly

I think policywonk is saying something interesting.

I used to be a total slob and completely out of control in my house. There were mornings where we realised that there was no clean uniform because I hadn't been organised enough to launder it and the house was such a tip that the dirty stuff hadn't been evident. Sometimes, shoes would go astray for days and DS would have to wear trainers to school.

But in the last couple of months, I've suddenly become competent and I find that I'm much calmer, happier and that I have far more free time. There are no crises before school anymore. I can sit down with a book/ film / mumsnet and not think I ought to be sorting out that laundry/ loading the dishwasher/ clearing up that shit there. And this has come alongside reading toxic parents and following the "but we took you to stately homes" thread and feeling that I'm taking back control of my life and taking control of my household is part of that.

I don't know if that makes me a Stepford wife, but there is something about what Policywonk was saying about women not having control of much of their lives and the household being the domain they do - in my case it has been the opposite, as I've gained control of my relationship with my lunatic mother, it's showing in my control of my household. (I'm a lone parent btw, hence non-mention of it being any other adult's job.)

I agree Madamez.

if FLY was justa bout getting to grips with the basics (given that there is a choice over whether you do it or not) it wouldn't bother me, but it even starts with such non-essential stuff as shine your sink.

Why?

What si the purpose?

Surely I shoudl wash up the shite in my sink first anyway?

A basic standard of hygiene ina house is important and crucial, or course it is, and if someone is reallys truggling then sweep under the table, bleach the toilet and make sure that there's some undies washed would be useful: crud about skirting and shininess...... nah.

Your domestic environment can be a big reflection of your emotional state, can't it? Think of those poor people on 'How Clean Is Your House?' - how many times did I watch that (befode I decided to get a life instead) thinking 'This person needs counselling, not to be bullied by some weird Bet Lynch lookalike'.

Again, my impression of that silly series is that the ones who seemed seriously depressed were women, while the ones who seemed to be partly proud of their mess (as well as partly embarrassed) tended to be men. However I'll admit that this is hardly scientific.

Hmm. Reading this thread has reminded me that I need to set a housework rota for myself, my DH and DSs to follow. Some of the FLY lady stuff is quite useful, especially the idea of decluttering regularly and doing a little and often. But it needs to be shared by all of us....
I did unsubscribe myself from the fly lady emails after a while as they were spamming out one of my inboxes, and I found this irritating once I'd got the general idea.

Peachy the sink thing is just to start somewhere

instead of wandering round your house going oh crap, where do I start

you make one thing shiny and it makes you think there, I did something

or something

have to admit I don't do mine

My house was always a tip and I always felt out of control and on the verge of a nervous breakdown.

Now I don't. There is order. There is calm. There is Zen. There is free time and leisure and relaxation and more patience with the children. Ordnung macht frei. Or Kinder Kirche Kuche. Or something.

There was thread sometime ago about Fly adn I remember one poster saying it did help with her depression - it gave her something to aim for each day and being able to post her achievement on the Fly threads and to feel part of a group.

all you lot that dont get it cannot criticize it as YOU JUST DOT UNDERSTAND

stop complaining about the way she encourages you to shine your sink first

I GET IT, it speaks to me
from my depressed haze of feeling like a failing human

if you dont get it and it doesn't speak to you
walk away and stop pissing everyone off by telling us that its against feminism
shit I am the sahm in my house
I want to get the house trotting along with the minimum of wqork and stress

flylady helped me to start to do that from a startin point of NO clean clothes
dirty things EVERYWHERE
me totsally strung out, cobwebs, shitty floor, disgusting loo and egverything else you could imagine

go and do something productive on this nice saturday afternoon like helping twig get rid of her hiccups

OR

wiping your skirting boards

I've just joined fly and am now going to do the bathroom. Will be a nice surprise for dh when he comes home!

Bravo, Hercules! Now just remember, he's had a busy day

No, he hasnt! He's been out all day doing voluntary work which is also his break from the housework drugery. He is a sahp.

Never heard of FLY. I can't see why anyone would find cleaning something that had to be learnt. I can however see that if life has got away from you a helping hand might be great. Personally I'd prefer one that actually helped rather than encouraging words! I can't see that there is any particular science to cleaning. Seems straightforward to me. Don't have too much stuff, have places to put it away and do so, and then vaccum when you get annoyed with treading on bits. Wash up after each meal, and keep laudry to a minimum. Oh and wipe down the kitchen and bathroom once a week or so. Having a smaller house helps (much easier to keep our old flat tidy than our three floor house).

Dh and I in early days had a cleaning/cooking split (I did the cleaning), and that worked fine. When we both went to work we'd do the cleaning together on Saturday morning, and once we had children we got a cleaner (fantastic luxury IMO). Now we just do the washing up and tidying, and who ever feels like it does it. The children tidy their rooms only at the moment, but I would like them to get better at putting their clothes away (in fact it's a bit of a battle to get them to put their dirty clothes in the wash, but I persevere on that one)). dh is probably more housework orientated than me as I'm lazier!

Nooka - if I waited for someone else to 'feel like' tidying up we'd not be able to find the front door.

Ah, well that's where not having so much stuff helps! But then we have a spotless house once a week courtesy of our lovely cleaner, and it's much easier to keep somewhere tidy from a clean start I think. Also having school age children helps as it means there is no one actually in the house most of the time - holidays are always much messier!

I am a regular FLYer...
I started off using FLY to get myself into a routine.
Now I FLY with a fantastic bunch of people here on MN, my routines have been established, now I use the FLY thread on here to keep me going.
To be quite honest, I like to do my best, at whatever it is I am doing. At this stage in my life, I am mummy and wife...my DH works long hours and is S.Employed. When we planned to start a family, it was my choice to stay here at home and raise them myself. This phase won't last forever...when my youngest starts school, no doubt I will go and get a job outside of home. But at the moment this is my job...raising the kids and keeping our home clean, safe and in order.
FLY taught me the basics, and it taught me the easy way. I like to be good at my job, and take great satisfaction when people comment on my nice tidy home.
It isn't about women being tied to the house...it is a choice! I chose to quit work and raise a family. It doesn't have to be drudgery either...once you have control of the housework, you can tidy it up in an hour or so, then use the rest of the time to do as you please.
I would much prefer my job to my DH's job ANYDAY!

I totally agree with you Madamez. You need to have a chat to my MIL who cleans her house top to bottom all day every day . I know she must be horrified when she comes to my bomb site . I really can't be arsed with it.

Xenia, that is why I always call myself a Stay At Home Mum rather then Housewife and mother or something like Domestic Engineer...because, a natural housewife I ain't, lol...and I was brought up not to lie

I stay at home to be with the Kids, not to do housework, simple as that...of course, I do end up doing a major part, but well, I do what I feel like doing and my dh can either like it or lump it....

I had no idea, btw, that Fly stood for what it does...I always thought Fly as Fly on a wall that sees ys, lol...

'how can anyone discuss the sexual politics of cleaning their own toilet?'

Er, because the politics of housework is absolutely crucial to any discussion of how men and women conduct their lives?

I love you, Dittany, btw

Quite.

Dribbles on the outside of the loo cannot be mine, as a female.