To think that this FLY business is just another way of trying to convince women that service is what they are meant for?

[madamez]

We've had house-work-is-what-FAther-Xmas-made-women-for.
We've had housework is the standard on which a woman's morals are judged.
Now we have housework as therapy: FInally Loving Yourself. What's loving about knocking yourself out with drudgery? Surely it's more self-loving to say, bollocks to doing more than the minimum, mess is no big deal and my time is far too precious to wipe skirting boards twice a day?

Whether you are male or female the house work still needs to be done, even if you have a cleaner there is still laundry, tidying up, shopping, lunches, meals etc. You need a system and routine even more so if you work. Clean as you go as it were, organisation is key. My dp is quite keen on it in theory. He's being working on solving the odd sock conundrum too and thinking of a system to prevent them seperating. I think it's just a question of how you look at the tasks that need to be done. I have to confess I am fairly hopeless at it and am very chaotic and half assed, my dp is actually better at organisation. we're developing systems and routines to make things easier for us both. I end up pushing the hoover and dusting though but he fixes cars, makes the fires and digs in the garden.

I do think the whole concept of Flylady is mighty bizarre and yes, sexist, but I'm not making any kind of pronouncement on people who follow it if that's what floats their boat...

However...

Some people DO NOT GIVE A FIG about housework. We manage to keep our houses decent-ish. We don't worry about it too much. It's NO biggie. I don't NEED someone to tell me to clean my sink (I get my husband to do it ha ha haaaa). Seriously, though - is it so hard to understand?

I think women have very confused ideas about housework, it's just general care of oneself at the end of the day, male or female we should all take part. It's like cooking, my mothers generation thought it was really important not to be able to cook and were happy to serve up packet soup for lunch. My MIL is shocked an offended that I cook and teach my dd to cook. 'No grandaughter of mine is going to be domestic' but she didn't work or cook and thinks she's the queen. I don't think that's what Germaine Greer had in mind.

I don't think it's that bad, I clean up after myself these days and have routines, which is just a basic lifeskill isn't it?. I don't think any kind of obsession with it is healthy though.

That's fine@rebelmum. Of course as adults we all have to be able to take care of yourselves and our children - and yes, our partners, as a loving gesture to them, because they are our family. But I expect my husband to do the same were possible. Put it this way - I wouldn't have married a man that expected me to do the lion's share of the housework just because I am a) a woman, or b) have taken some time out of my career to look after our children. I couldn't live like that.

True, some women don't mind doing it all and some wont lift a finger (my MIL) some share the tasks (me and dp). But a system is really important when time is of the essence, we all square the house away when we leave for work these days and clear everything away at night. I do weekly meal plans. I do more laundry ( I don't do his) and hoover pushing but dp does more digging, fixing and renovating. How many women out there are a dab hand at diy? Shouldn't we be doing more of that stuff? I had a flat the other day and had to ask a chap at work to change it, I should be doing it myself.

True@rebelmum. me and DH are both useless at DIY, though .

Oh Glitter, sorry about the complete neanderthal. You said I would describe him as a throwback, and indeed he does sound like one, but you called him a neanderthal first.

There are lots of good men and true out there and perhaps the best thing we can do as mothers is to educate our sons in female equality.

gf is correct about the sexism still in many marriages and male views (which they often don't express to women but do hold) about what women should do at home, not all men (my exhusband was one of the rare fair ones).

MrsS has the right approach - if she is out 12 hours a day and her husband refuses to get a cleaner and he gets home first then it is his choice not to employ someone then he can do it and the only way to achieve that is if the woman doesn't do it for him.

It took us a few years to get routines going that worked and you need to think ahead and plan. In year 23 of being a mother now (the youngest are 9 and at school so I am not in the pre school years any more) I think we have systems that work very well even though I'm not on my own, divorced etc. It is possible that working mothers are actually better at housekeeping than stay at home ones because they have to plan their lives more and are used to getting on and getting things done and setting out routines etc.

Good topic- are working mothers and fathers better at house organisation than the typical housewife of today who from this thread refuses to do the cleaning in the day!

I'm sure you're better than me at keeping house@Xenia. I can't imagine your house being anything less than spotless!

I am much better at house organisation when I am working. I get far more done because I know that it has to be done and that I only have a certain amount of time to do it!

After being on ML for 1 year I have hardly achieved anything that I wanted to do....too much time spent walking in the park and being on MN!!

Plus, being a SAHM this year I was guilty of always thinking "oh well, I will do that tomorrow" and never did!!

I will admit that I have idly pushed a hoover round DD2's bedroom this morning because the mess was working its way down the hall and was getting on my nerves.

And DD1 and I are making Latkes for lunch, so cooking + culture!

Xenia will shoot me for this, but my DH even does most of the cooking (after a hard day's work at the office! Poor thing! ..). He enjoys cooking and is much better at it than I am, so why not?

Lol Mrs Mattie - DP does ALL the cooking after a hard days work, but like your DH he enjoys it and says it helps him unwind......and I have no complaints!!

If you have a daily system or routine you're more likely to both/all get involved rather than only one person doing it all, the trick is to involve a man rather than grumble and rather than take on the martyr role. You need to bring things down to a smaller scale for male comprehension of what needs to be done and when. Rather than complain about doing the washing up, square things away when you can and get everyone to do the same. Go away and leave it all to go to the dogs, that pushes the point home. Systems, solutions and routines are a much better way of looking at it than drudgery.

Quattro dont worry being alone is much better

I agree there are some good ones out there but honestly it is not such as rosy picture as some people paint. Even the nice ones I do know have wives who say that they are not as great as they say they are.

As I said I work full time and am a single mum of three. I choose to eat baked potatoes and cottage cheese in order to have a cleaner and ironer because I would rather spend my spare time with the kids but I have (just) enough money to make that work.

Working enables me to have a good sense of self esteem which vanished as a SAHM for 6 years partly because people insisted I was a housewife and I loathe that title. I also felt that I was lower in my xs scale as well as a SAHM he gave me far more credence as a working mum. AS I say that may be atypical but judging from some of the research out there I dont think so.

I agree with Xenia that working out of the home does force the development of key organisational skills ...

I hadn't realised quite how much until I read the "Doing the school run in pyjamas" thread.

my neighbour has 2 dc's both at school or nursery 5 days, her dp works away and when he comes home at the weekend he takes the dc's out while she has a lie in, she doesn't cook either, house is spotless though. But she makes them keep it clean.

Yes, I have no doubt I was more organised as a full time worker@Quattro. Not disagreeing with that. I just don't feel the need to channel my organisational skills into keeping house while I'm not working full time. The very idea seems bizarre.

It's all the fault of the 50's and the invention of labour-saving devices. Before that, women who were at home all day had to know how to organize their time to get the things that were needful done.

Once we had fridges, freezers, washing machines, dryers and microwaves we just sat in our houses painting our nails, and that gets old pretty damn quick.

I don't FLY, because the whole thing drives me nuts by cluttering up my inbox with out-of-sync emails ("Why are you telling me I need to shine my sink before bed now? It's only 5 o'clock!")

I agree that the 15 minutes thing is useful, but I got that from somewhere else entirely.

Being organized about housework isn't drudgery, though, it's the very opposite. If you don't like housework, get a cleaner. If you'd rather spend the cash on wine (like me) but you personally don't like mess, it's not exactly a huge leap in logic to be organized about it.

And as for at-home partners doing the housework, well, duh. My Dh does quite a bit, but it's simple logistics that if I am in the home 40 hours more than he is, I'm going to have more opportunity to tidy it up. Sod all to do with sexual politics and everything to do with the fact that I hate walking on a crunchy carpet, and he's not nearly as fussed.

glitterfairy, I would tend to agree with that article.

I work parttime and have to be organised about how I am going to get childcare/housework covered in a week.

Last week, it was dh's turn at home looking after dd during halfterm. And I got a list of childcare related chores for him to do with dd eg do Easter poster with dd for her school Easter fair, take 2 passport sized photos for dd that I need to register her for language class.

Dd was difficult and he told me he did not want to do any more of MY chores. I wonder how they were MY chores. If I were off with dd that week, I would have had to fit those chores in along with the usual laundry, cooking, etc that I do at home during the hours I were not WOHM.

For dh, being at home looking after dd means doing pure childcare unadulterated by chores.

Having said that, dh is usually great about doing the things I tell him to - it is that dd pushed his buttons that day. And to his credit, he takes dd all over town, to movies, exhibitions, park etc. Whereas if I were home with dd, I would try to do more housework related tasks and get dd involved in them, like cooking, sewing, role playing mummies and daddies with her whilst I tidy.

just becuase i use fly does not mean i am subservient and it is a waste of my time.

i do am dram, i socialise with friends and i am also doing a degree, this on top of two young children.

i have just gone back to work part time as well and knew that if i did not get on top of things we would collapse under a heap of squalor. dh works 6 days a week running his own business he has no time to do all of the housework but he does what i consider his fair share and also does most of the cooking. in reality he probably gets the raw end sometimes.

surely keeping your house tidy is not a bad thing!!! surely keeping the toilet clean and the high chair tray hygenic is not a bad thing! its part of life!

i accept that i am a grown up now and my responsibility is to make sure my children live in a nice environment, eat good food, are loved etc etc but this is dh responsibilty too and we do it as a partnership.

yes it is not the be all and end all but it is still important.

i dont give a damn whether this is not the right feminst attitude to take!

before i started to use fly i was fed up with the house always being a mess, we never seemed to get on top of it but the system has really worked for us as a family and I like it!

"And I got a list of childcare related chores for him to do..."

blueshoes - if my partner gave me a list of "childcare related chores" for me to do when I have sole care of the children, I would sock him one bloody fast . I'm not surprised your DH went on strike.

If you stay at home full time, surely you can't do housework for 40 hours? Can you? I would have thought you could have tidied rooms, put a wash on, quick tidy and hoover in time for Jeremy Kyle at 10.30..