To think that this FLY business is just another way of trying to convince women that service is what they are meant for?

[madamez]

We've had house-work-is-what-FAther-Xmas-made-women-for.
We've had housework is the standard on which a woman's morals are judged.
Now we have housework as therapy: FInally Loving Yourself. What's loving about knocking yourself out with drudgery? Surely it's more self-loving to say, bollocks to doing more than the minimum, mess is no big deal and my time is far too precious to wipe skirting boards twice a day?

I don't want to answer that. For many reasons, not least of which it would be discourteous to those women who feel it is appropriate that they be kept as Wives (to order the servants around) as Handmaids (to breed) or as Marthas (to do the drudgery) or in fact some combination of all three but NEVER NEVER to work or to be in any way shape or form economically or socially equal to men.

Let's talk about your choices, Quattro.

You're obviously a successful career woman, who views keeping your own home clean a task beneath your status and talents. Therefore you employ someone else to do it for you.

A woman, no doubt.

This is over-analyzing to the nth-degree. If you're too bone idle or too damned precious to wipe your skirting boards, so be it. If you think that women are too good for housework, than the natural argument is that men should do it.

Regardless of the social history between the sexes (which is not as black and white as feminists would like to believe), your argument inevitably leads to inequity.

Someone has to clean your house if you're not prepared to do it yourself. If not a man, than a minion.

I am happy to talk about my choices if you like Desi.

Yes I do work. Yes that means that I have limited time available. My DH also works. He also has limited time available. Insofar as we only have limited time for housework, we share it absolutely equally.

The work we outsource is shared equally between men and women. In fact in terms of hours, there are more male hours than female hours. I've just added them up!

But let me guess ... the women do the cleaning and the men do the gardening?

Oh FGS most women have a career before and after staying at home.
They stay at home to look after the CHILDREN, not the house.
Why is only when we earn money that we are worthy of equality?
Some arrangements are about a fluidity and respect, not about one person being exploited.
What a cynical view of relationships and life in general.
LOL that you chastise some women for thinking housework is beneath them yet you yourself employ a cleaner.
With no- one in the house all day you can't be awfully untidy. Whereas a sahm with toddlers at home has a lot more tidying and sorting out to do.
Please don't mask your offensive views of women and relationships by pretending to be a feminist, either.

I am a feminist actually - I believe that women are capable of more than housework. Sorry if that upsets your world view, Mrs Ruffalo

(Oh and no Desi, you are wrong about that, male aupair)

not sticking up for anone in particular here - but wanted to point out that employing a cleaner doesnt make one automatially think that cleaning is beneath them

but that they have the cash to employ someone to do the shit stuff

which is a bit different i feel

But I do believe that women have a right to choose what they do with their lives, without being judged by other women who obviuosly have different priorities.
Choosing to sah does not have to mean choosing housework, no matter how much that infuriates you
I don't think anyone has suggested that women aren't capable of doing more than housework. That is hardly radical feminism.
Some women might consider your paid employment dull and relentless

But then don't criticise others for not doing all the housework themselves custardo- that comes across as quite hypocritical.

What is so difficult to grasp about equality?

That doesn't mean doing the same things as men, necessarily but it means doing no less than, and NO MORE THAN our fair share

Why is that so bloody difficult?

I feel awful when I read the threads about women who are at their wits' end trying to work and juggle everything.

Then I think well if I were at work I would be coaching them on assertiveness and how to get their own way without appearing to be strident.

Then I feel awful when I read the posts about women who are too posh to clean but too dim to work

Probably the worst posts are those from women whose whole lives clearly revolve around having clean skirting boards

Why is this balance so BLOODY difficult? Why is an equal balance so difficult to find?

from where i sit ( blurry eyed) you are arguing the same point

whse fault is it really - when as a woman you work all day and do all the chores - all things being otherwise equal?

Quattro, surely you can see that the very act of employing a cleaner is deeply suggestive of a desire for clean skirting boards yourself?

You cannot berate the FLY ladies by saying that there are more important things in life, and then employ someone to do those things which you find unimportant?

A male au pair is very funky ... but I'm still guessing that your cleaner is a woman.

We can all go round the houses, all week long, with this thread. We all make our choices, for our own reasons. And we all think our choices are the right ones, because we have to believe that or we'd go insane.

But I don't see housework as a feminist issue. It's just shit that needs clearing up, by anybody who's willing and able, be they male, female, child or robot.

Dittany, you have just dissed 50% of the adult population with that remark.

I have never met a bloke who didn't pull his weight with the housework stuff. My father did, all my boyfriends have, my dh does, my bloody son does.

If anybody doesn't pull their weight, it's always been me!

This gender stereotyping is soooo dull. Some people like a clean and orderly home. Some people don't. Gender has got fuck all to do with it.

It's just a matter of fairness. I have political problems with women being home and men being out at work for all kinds of reasons but if women do stay home then to make things fair on men the houswife should do most of the cleaning (as I'm sure most do) otherwise it's not fair. Feminism is not about women getting more. Sexism is as much about unfair deals for men as women. I genuinely don't think it's fair to take samell children out all day, gossip with your friends and leave the housework undone for when your husband gets back. By all means go out once or twice a week or for a few hours but make sure most of it's done before he gets back. Clearly I would have made a very good housewife and have missed my calling.....

(and who said housework wasn't sexy... I think lots of men find women cleaning pretty sexy actually; again this must be where I'm going wrong)

I agree with Desiderata . She's said it all for me.

Message withdrawn

Oh please Xenia. 'Take small children out and gossip all day'. I'm so sick of your ridiculous stereotypes that bear no resemblance to my life. I am not living in 'Footballer's Wives', getting my nails done on a daily basis while neglecting my poor, money -earning husband. Neither am I Hilda Ogden, on my hands and knees scrubbing floors all day.

I like looking after my son all day. I choose to do this (at the moment). Correction: this is what WE choose for OUR family AT THE MOMENT. I work all day looking after my son (I presume you can see how childcare = work, as you pay someone to do it FOR YOU, do you not?). My husband works all day doing what he does. When we both end our working days / have free time, we do a bit of housework. It's not rocket science. When we both worked outside the home, I didn't do all the cleaning. Why on earth should I do it now?

And for the record, we don't have a cleaner. We don't place a huge emphasis on 'keeping house'. We like spending our time going out, drinking wine, reading, shagging. I'm pretty sure we're not the only ones.

Get off your high horse.

I work full time and have a long commute, which means that I am out of the house for 12 hours. I'm happy to cook when I come in, but don't see why I should spend all weekend and every evening cleaning, tidying and ironing. I'd like to employ a cleaner but DH says we can't afford it. So I am now taking a minimalist approach to cleaning. I don't clear the table and load the dishwasher in the evening as I used to. I read a book and go to bed. He's the one who has to contend with the mess when he gets up in the morning, and if it doesn't get done, well, he is first home, so it will be there looking at him when he gets in. He doesn't like mess, so he does it - after a bit of a protest and calling me a slut, but it gets done. He has also started washing the kitchen floors, hoovering and cleaning the bathrooms as I, apparently, "don't do it properly." I do the cooking and the washing, but he does the cleaning. Result, I think.

oh strike a light I think I agree with Xenia

at least on some of what she is saying

When my dh was at home I expected him to keep the place clean and tidy because although I think that looking after children is hard work I don't think it uses all the time in the day! Whereas at work I really do work 9-5+, as does he when he is at work. Spending the weekend doing housework seems to me a waste of a weekend, for all of us. In the evenings we are both too tired to do much at all, whether from looking after the children or from work. Also the evenings are dh's free time to go to the gym etc. Except for the time when I was at home breastfeeding and recovering from c-sections, when obviously I had little time or energy to do much. But we did have a small flat when the children were little, so keeping it shipshape took a max of a few hours a week (when we did it together it took about three hours at the weekend).

Re employing a cleaner that's nothing to do with cleaning being beneath us. We have a lovely lady who we pay well and enjoys looking after us (she's done it for seven years now). She is also much better at it that either me or dh. Likewise with childcare we chose someone who had decided to make a career from looking after children. Again she was much better at it than us and certainly gave all appearances of enjoying her job. No exploitation involved - we paid a good wage. Now if we were employing illegal immigrants and holding on the their passports or some such then fair enough that would be iffy, but in a capitalist system young women can make choices about what they do (as clearly evidenced by this thread!).

I still think we should be aiming for a fair division of labour, where everyone has opportunities, and everyone pulls their weight. Pretending that housework is therapy is still a con though!

This article is interesting. www.guardian.co.uk/family/story/0,,2250689,00.html It discusses research by Dr caroline Gatrell which looks at how mothers and fathers manage their daily lives.

Two thirds of fathers express ambivalence towards mothers being employed. Men see helping out as just that helping women fulfil the maternal role. She sees it that when men have a desire to have an equal parenting role it does not extend to child related domestic chores such as washing clothes or packing lunchboxes. With one exception the mothers she spoke to were responsible for the child related domestic work.

There are still power struggles going on and to think it is all over is naive in the extreme. To equate a web site which helps some women do housework in a routine way with the end of feminism is also ridiculous.

I am no longer married to a neanderthal but everyone else saw him as very liberated when we were married because occasionally he emptied the dishwasher and helped with shopping on a Saturday. I expect if you had met him quattro you would have said he did a share but he didnt not really and was a complete throwback really wanting me to do it all and him to have a cosy little nest.

I know there are men who are not like this but they are few and far between and to believe differently is blinkered in the extreme.