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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Diane Abbott

894 replies

Flowerly · 23/04/2023 12:02

To say that Diane Abbott is doing her best to help the Labour Party to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory?

Hideous antisemitism seemingly not gone away at all and add that to the horrendous misogyny in the Labour Party I wonder at this point why ANYONE would vote for them.

AIBU?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
33
MaryCrawford · 23/04/2023 13:15

Socialdistancechampion · 23/04/2023 13:12

And equally white protestants are hated by Catholics. Religion is a great cultural divider.

Show quote history

And how do you think a load of Protestants arrived in a Catholic country and flourished. Read a bleeding history book.

SleepDreamThinkHuge · 23/04/2023 13:15

Cornflakes44 · 23/04/2023 13:09

Do you really think that white people, who are Jewish, Irish, or from the traveller community experience racism to the same degree as black people? I actually think it’s extremely racist to suggest they do. People hate Diane Abbott with a passion I don’t think they’d have if she was a white man. She knows exactly how racism works.

This exactly she was wrong to say that about travellers and Jewish people of course they were hugely discriminated to and still are. She deserves to lose the whip. But some of the people I have seen criticise are not that good either when black women in particular talk about their experience it is either they are "aggressive" "have a chip on their shoulders" "playing the race card" "race baiting" you name it. Look what happened to Ngozi Fulani she had to leave her group supporting those suffering from Domestic Violence because people called her these things and absolutely attacked her and nothing was done of these people. It is the same when black people when talk about slavery "don't talk about that it was a long time ago"

SpeedSnap · 23/04/2023 13:15

Socialdistancechampion · 23/04/2023 13:12

And equally white protestants are hated by Catholics. Religion is a great cultural divider.

Show quote history

The Irish Catholics were in their own country minding their own business when British colonists came over and started causing trouble. Anyone in their position would be passed off.

Clymene · 23/04/2023 13:15

Sugarsweet987 · 23/04/2023 13:12

I don’t think that what Diane Abbott said is antisemectic at all. She pointed out a fact.
jews are not persecuted today as they were 50 years ago, are not 5x more likely to be stopped and searched, very unlikely to be followed in the shops, unlikely to receive poor maternal care, unlikely to be killed by the police because of their religion, unlikely to be predjuiced for jobs based on their name, culture, religion and color of their skin and the list goes on

Perhaps you should read the article.

In fact, the two groups most likely to say they have experienced racist abuse, according to the survey, are Gypsy, Traveller and Roma communities and Jewish people.

anotherside · 23/04/2023 13:16

@LondonMummer

But racism is literally about differences in physical appearance/genetics. Which is why when, say, France banned the hijab and burka etc in schools, many people claimed it was wrong to do so, but few labelled it as racist. But while a person can remove a hijab, or a Jewish person can remove a skullcap, a black/Asian person can try their absolute best to blend in and not stand out in their manners and dress choices but will STILL be subjected to radial abuse by a significant minority. While say an Irish person or a Jewish person or a gypsy will generally not stand out as much due to their facial appearance/skin colour. The general public would by and large usually by unable to say with any certainty which politician, footballer, or singer is Jewish. But they can identify the Asian or Black celebrities pretty easily. So there is actually a difference there, and something to the point Abbot was making, though I agree she made it clumsily.

Plbrookes · 23/04/2023 13:16

Cornflakes44 · 23/04/2023 13:09

Do you really think that white people, who are Jewish, Irish, or from the traveller community experience racism to the same degree as black people? I actually think it’s extremely racist to suggest they do. People hate Diane Abbott with a passion I don’t think they’d have if she was a white man. She knows exactly how racism works.

But I think it's appallingly racist to suggest that people from the Travelling community don't experience racism to the same degree as Black people do. Where do you go now?

Florissant · 23/04/2023 13:16

SpeedSnap · 23/04/2023 13:15

The Irish Catholics were in their own country minding their own business when British colonists came over and started causing trouble. Anyone in their position would be passed off.

Show quote history

Ah. Whatabouttery. My favourite logical fallacy.

MaryCrawford · 23/04/2023 13:16

Well, Diane Abbot thinks that there is no racism against the Irish. She is wrong.

SpeedSnap · 23/04/2023 13:18

MaryCrawford · 23/04/2023 13:13

Ireland is still under British Rule and the BBC usually-although not always- refer to Derry as Londonderry.

Colonialism is alive and well in the North of Ireland ( no such country as Northern Ireland)

Nor a country named 'Southern Ireland' I know a lot is due to people being ignorant. The number of English people I had to inform that they were making a political statement misnaming a country pre the Good Friday agreement was extraordinary.

TheHoover · 23/04/2023 13:18

Plbrookes · Today 13:08
It's surprising that Abbott is making such an effort to separate groups subjected to racism. I rember her tweeting: "White people love playing 'divide & rule' We should not play their game."
yes indeed, she seems to have lost her mind completely - she has been the subject of frequent, disgusting racist abuse herself so quite why she feels that this empowers her to diminish the experience of others is beyond me. I will be interested to see if she doubles down or retracts everything she said.

Boughtitdownthemarket · 23/04/2023 13:18

What she said was completely inappropriate because no one gets to decide what other ethnicities do and don't face. I'm a white, northern European. It would be unbelievably inappropriate for me to make comments on what Jewish people or black people do and don't face, discrimination-wise. This works both ways. A very unwise letter to write.

Original poster
Flowerly · 23/04/2023 13:19

Socialdistancechampion · 23/04/2023 13:14

It still seems socially acceptable to be antisemitic and to spout crap against travellers. These are the only 2 groups where you rarely get pulled up on it.

People defending Diane Abbott are proving this point

Yes that is very true.

OP posts:
Brefugee · 23/04/2023 13:19

cactiminds · 23/04/2023 12:31

Whilst what she said was wrong, the fact that social media, the actual media and most posters on here are only discussing antisemitism goes to show that racism towards the Irish and Travellers is still ignored and often accepted.

agree. What she wrote was appalling and wrong. Abuse and discrimination against travellers seems to be one of the last acceptable -isms. It needs to be stamped out.

But. Where is all the outrage about the appalling racist and misogynist abuse Abbott has received over the years?

Whataretheodds · 23/04/2023 13:20

anotherside · 23/04/2023 13:16

@LondonMummer

But racism is literally about differences in physical appearance/genetics. Which is why when, say, France banned the hijab and burka etc in schools, many people claimed it was wrong to do so, but few labelled it as racist. But while a person can remove a hijab, or a Jewish person can remove a skullcap, a black/Asian person can try their absolute best to blend in and not stand out in their manners and dress choices but will STILL be subjected to radial abuse by a significant minority. While say an Irish person or a Jewish person or a gypsy will generally not stand out as much due to their facial appearance/skin colour. The general public would by and large usually by unable to say with any certainty which politician, footballer, or singer is Jewish. But they can identify the Asian or Black celebrities pretty easily. So there is actually a difference there, and something to the point Abbot was making, though I agree she made it clumsily.

You clearly don't know much about how the Holocaust was implemented. Being non-practising, not wearing religious symbols was no protection against that genocide.

Eleganz · 23/04/2023 13:20

Plbrookes · 23/04/2023 13:16

But I think it's appallingly racist to suggest that people from the Travelling community don't experience racism to the same degree as Black people do. Where do you go now?

Show quote history

Exactly. Beat me to it.

It seems that there are a lot of people who are really ignorant of what the Romani and Traveller communities face in terms of prejudice and treat their ignorance as fact.

ZeroWorshipHere · 23/04/2023 13:20

Cornflakes44 · 23/04/2023 13:09

Do you really think that white people, who are Jewish, Irish, or from the traveller community experience racism to the same degree as black people? I actually think it’s extremely racist to suggest they do. People hate Diane Abbott with a passion I don’t think they’d have if she was a white man. She knows exactly how racism works.

The prejudice redheads experience extends to jibes about their appearance and mostly lighthearted name calling. Do you really think it’s acceptable to equate that with the experience of Jews, travellers and Irish people?

Original poster
Flowerly · 23/04/2023 13:20

DojaPhat · 23/04/2023 13:13

She really should have known better. She's been in politics long enough and endured so much to know what she wrote would end like this. I'm shocked she left herself so open. I'm glad though that people who hitherto didn't give a shit about anti-racism have now come out in full force condemning her letter, it's so nice to see everyone finally discovering the importance of anti-racism Smile Refreshing really, Diane Abbott receives the most amount of online abuse faced by a single MP to which Keir Starmer among others has never tackled nor parts of her own party even commented on. I'm glad that the Labour party and others have finally realised just how damaging racist rhetoric can be.

Starmer has never defended Rosie Duffield either and she gets masses of abuse and threats. Maybe he is more of a man's man?

OP posts:
firef1y · 23/04/2023 13:21

Just putting this out there :

I have been told on here that because i am fair skinned with blonde hair that i cannot possibly have faced racism in my life. Despite having grown up with a very obvious Irish heritage in London during the times of the IRA London bombings. Despite having grown up hearing all the Irish jokes on TV etc. Despite hearing myself described as a Paddy terrorist bitch. Despite my family all hiding their Roma roots....

she has simply said the same as those that told me I cannot have experienced racism. I'm white, I have a very "English" accent, I don't even have an Irish surname now. I can hide who I am, those of colour can't hide what it is that makes then different.

Oh and can we please remember that it wasn't just the Jewish people that were persecuted in Nazi Germany. We lost members of our family and my Grandmother escaped to England as Roma.

highfidelity · 23/04/2023 13:21

I'm Jewish and yes, what she has said is offensive and wrong. She has essentially said similar to Whoopi Goldberg who also said Jews don't experience racism. Many think racism is about the colour of one's skin rather than about race.

Being Jewish is a religion and also a race, many forget this. I am not an observant Jew but am Jewish, and even if I were to convert to a different religion, I would still be Jewish because that is my ethnic group. At its core, antisemitism just means hatred of Jews and is different to racism.

This ignorance about Jews not experiencing racism needs to end. Diane Abbott should have known better than to weigh into something she clearly does not understand. I don't even think she's racist or antisemitic, she's just very stupid and ignorant which is far worse.

SpeedSnap · 23/04/2023 13:22

Flowerly · 23/04/2023 13:20

Starmer has never defended Rosie Duffield either and she gets masses of abuse and threats. Maybe he is more of a man's man?

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The Brighton Finger jabber has red hair so...

anotherside · 23/04/2023 13:22

@ReformedWaywardTeen

*I don't think she was wrong at all.

I'm Irish. We don't face anywhere near the type of racism experienced by black people or Asian people. No where near. We don't get overlooked for jobs, housing, or given grief by police. Not now.

Sorry but as a black woman she knows what she is talking about. There is far worse racism experienced by those people - look at the recent investigation into the MET.

Keir has looked for any excuse to sack her. If anything stops Labour winning it's his behaviour of forgetting what Labour stands for.*

Unfortunately Labour ( and the Tories of course ) don’t really care about an end to racism. They just care about not getting told off by the Mail and the Sun and keeping Murdoch and co. happy.

Cornflakes44 · 23/04/2023 13:22

But people from these group move through the world as white people. Yes people have extremely prejudice views of them, but to say they experience racism the same as a black person isn’t right in my view.

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 23/04/2023 13:23

anotherside · 23/04/2023 13:16

@LondonMummer

But racism is literally about differences in physical appearance/genetics. Which is why when, say, France banned the hijab and burka etc in schools, many people claimed it was wrong to do so, but few labelled it as racist. But while a person can remove a hijab, or a Jewish person can remove a skullcap, a black/Asian person can try their absolute best to blend in and not stand out in their manners and dress choices but will STILL be subjected to radial abuse by a significant minority. While say an Irish person or a Jewish person or a gypsy will generally not stand out as much due to their facial appearance/skin colour. The general public would by and large usually by unable to say with any certainty which politician, footballer, or singer is Jewish. But they can identify the Asian or Black celebrities pretty easily. So there is actually a difference there, and something to the point Abbot was making, though I agree she made it clumsily.

If someone is having to hide who they are by for example not wearing a skullcap then it follows that the reason is because they would suffer racism for being identified as belonging to that group. Even having to disguise what you are is suffering from a form of racism.

Socialdistancechampion · 23/04/2023 13:23

Cornflakes44 · 23/04/2023 13:22

But people from these group move through the world as white people. Yes people have extremely prejudice views of them, but to say they experience racism the same as a black person isn’t right in my view.

Are you a member of these ethnicities? Have you ever sat in a room and been not obvious while people engage in "banter" about your ethnic group? People are at their worst when they think they're not being heard.

Original poster
Flowerly · 23/04/2023 13:23

TheHoover · 23/04/2023 13:18

Plbrookes · Today 13:08
It's surprising that Abbott is making such an effort to separate groups subjected to racism. I rember her tweeting: "White people love playing 'divide & rule' We should not play their game."
yes indeed, she seems to have lost her mind completely - she has been the subject of frequent, disgusting racist abuse herself so quite why she feels that this empowers her to diminish the experience of others is beyond me. I will be interested to see if she doubles down or retracts everything she said.

She has apologised.

OP posts: