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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Diane Abbott

894 replies

Flowerly · 23/04/2023 12:02

To say that Diane Abbott is doing her best to help the Labour Party to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory?

Hideous antisemitism seemingly not gone away at all and add that to the horrendous misogyny in the Labour Party I wonder at this point why ANYONE would vote for them.

AIBU?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
33
Coffeeandbourbons · 25/04/2023 10:36

SpeedSnap · 25/04/2023 10:31

I've been informed my people killed Jesus ,

I don't know the context. This is factually correct if you believe in the Bible and even non Christians believe that a man named Jesus existed.

Jesus, his Mother and the Apostles were Jews, and the Book of revelation speaks about Jews, that too is factually correct for believers.

Are Biblical facts for many, now racist?

No they didn’t it was the Romans Confused

Florissante · 25/04/2023 10:37

Abbott is a loathsome individual.

Everanewbie · 25/04/2023 10:41

dinkytoon · 25/04/2023 10:32

He only truly apologised last year in person when he had become a self-declared authoritative voice on anti-racism and this past was holding him back. He caused enormous pain to Jason Lee and many black footballers with his casual and pervasive belittling, bullying and constant racist stereotyping. When people as adults tell you who they are believe them - they are telling you who they are, and besides you accept his apology but not hers.

I do accept her apology. As I said upthread, I have a huge amount of admiration for DA and I feel that her comments here are met with glee by those who see a great chance to attack an outspoken black woman as racist. It would be unfair to dismiss anything she says from now on because she was insensitive to jews, Irish and travelers.

DB was offensive on this occasion. He apologised too. His offense was in a less enlightened age and was ok'd by his comedy partner and the producers of the show. It doesn't excuse it so he has subsequently apologised. Interestingly, no one seems to demand an apology from Leigh Francis who mocked DB by dressing up as Hasidic Jew to poke fun his references to his ethnic origin.

Offense archeology serves no one and as I said, those who keep digging this up are attempting to de-legitimise him to avoid engaging with the difficult questions he raises.

GoodChat · 25/04/2023 10:43

I don't think they're going to remove her from the party. If they were going to, they'd have done it by now, wouldn't they?

They might encourage her to stand down if she does cite health issues privately.

rootsandfruits1 · 25/04/2023 10:45

@dinkytoon Firstly, you are completely wrong about JVL and they should not be taken seriously in any way as an anti racism group. The majority of it's membership are NOT Jewish (27% to be precise, and many of the 27% only very loosely identify as Jewish). They are a fraud hate group and their name "Jewish Voice for Labour" is used deceptively to hide this, basically to get a voice on mainstream platforms. They have also had many members expelled from Labour for horrendous antisemitism and harassment, and their have been instances of violence too. They basically have many similarities to some far right groups.

Secondly, yes I do get to call it out.

"There is no ideological test to join" and it is "a group for Jews in the Labour Party that would welcome all Jews, whatever their attitude to Israel".

This has been proven to be absolute horseshit. Moreover, the majority of British Jews would not touch JVL with a barge pole.

onirgellep · 25/04/2023 10:50

SpeedSnap · 25/04/2023 10:31

I've been informed my people killed Jesus ,

I don't know the context. This is factually correct if you believe in the Bible and even non Christians believe that a man named Jesus existed.

Jesus, his Mother and the Apostles were Jews, and the Book of revelation speaks about Jews, that too is factually correct for believers.

Are Biblical facts for many, now racist?

Yes this was the basis for the massacres persecution and discrimination of jews in the middle ages

It was also the reason why in medieval times jewish people were only allowed to work as money-lenders ie a dirty job not suited to good christians

Their role as money-lenders engendered more hate - greedy wealthy dishonest - which resulted in more persecution and discrimination

It was only about 40-50 years ago that the Catholic church stopped praying for the salvation of the jews on good friday

SpeedSnap · 25/04/2023 11:03

onirgellep · 25/04/2023 10:50

Yes this was the basis for the massacres persecution and discrimination of jews in the middle ages

It was also the reason why in medieval times jewish people were only allowed to work as money-lenders ie a dirty job not suited to good christians

Their role as money-lenders engendered more hate - greedy wealthy dishonest - which resulted in more persecution and discrimination

It was only about 40-50 years ago that the Catholic church stopped praying for the salvation of the jews on good friday

In the UK I am allowed to not believe in things like people being born in the wrong body and I can believe in my Catholic religion.

People can get offended and claim that I am committing genocide if I don't believe that they are born in the wrong body and they get offended if I believe Jews killed jesus, then so be it, they are my thoughts and beliefs and it's legal in the UK. Tolerance of others offence isn't a virtue for Catholics and it's not illegal in the UK.

Catholics pray for many. I prayed on Good Friday and made sacrifices in the privacy of my home for those in purgatory to release them and go to heaven. What a bunch of meanies eh!

onirgellep · 25/04/2023 11:08

As a practising Catholic you will therefore remember the Vatican removing the prayer for the jews for all the reasons I gave above

SpeedSnap · 25/04/2023 11:10

double standards

dinkytoon · 25/04/2023 11:10

rootsandfruits1 · 25/04/2023 10:45

@dinkytoon Firstly, you are completely wrong about JVL and they should not be taken seriously in any way as an anti racism group. The majority of it's membership are NOT Jewish (27% to be precise, and many of the 27% only very loosely identify as Jewish). They are a fraud hate group and their name "Jewish Voice for Labour" is used deceptively to hide this, basically to get a voice on mainstream platforms. They have also had many members expelled from Labour for horrendous antisemitism and harassment, and their have been instances of violence too. They basically have many similarities to some far right groups.

Secondly, yes I do get to call it out.

"There is no ideological test to join" and it is "a group for Jews in the Labour Party that would welcome all Jews, whatever their attitude to Israel".

This has been proven to be absolute horseshit. Moreover, the majority of British Jews would not touch JVL with a barge pole.

A lot of the voices on this thread are determined to frame Jewishness in how robust a Jew is in their support for the state of Israel. The left wing Jewish hipster group Jewdas had this to say on DB and a much better and politically sound Jewish comic is Alexi Sayle and he stands proudly in his defence of Jeremy Corbyn.

https://jewdas.org/aging-liberal-confuses-self-blames-left/

Aging Liberal Confuses Self, Blames Left – Jewdas

https://jewdas.org/aging-liberal-confuses-self-blames-left

BelleMarionette · 25/04/2023 11:21

Come through to today, people of Black heritage still have to face direct and indirect racism. We are still told 'empire' was for our benefit. We are told our experience of racism are not as bad as we think, by people who are not us. When we ask for reparations or debts to be cancelled there are umms and aahs and buts. But slave owners got compensation, and their heirs. Jewish people were able to see the Nazi leadership etc tried for crimes against humanity. And get their ancestors property back

Absolutely untrue. Few Nazis were tried for their crimes. Watch 'The devil next door' on netflix, which illustrates this. There was little appetite to try them.

Few managed to get their property back, it simply wasn't possible. Many entire families died, so there was no one to claim property, and for the survivors, return wasn't possible due to the pogroms. My grandfather, who was the sole survivor from his family, could not return to his village to reclaim property, as he would have been murdered. Of the hundreds of Jews who had lived there, one tried to return, and was murdered.

Please educate yourself on history and anti-Semitism and don't try to minimise the lived experiences of millions.

Anti-Semitism is still sadly prevalent today, and is racism. Just as I cannot speak for you, you cannot speak for me.

IDueLiocorni · 25/04/2023 11:26

Flowerly · 24/04/2023 19:40

Jewish, Irish and Roma people have also been persecuted over the centuries, but not in the way Black African/Asian heritage people have. They have not been owned, shipped, lynched, dehumanised or colonised for their own benefit. Then forced to fight for their freedom and land/resources/countries from imperialist governments, aside from the Irish

Seriously?

I know. There are no words…🤦🏻‍♀️

This is the moment I lost faith in the education system

Notwavingbutsignalling · 25/04/2023 13:35

@SpeedSnap

just for the record, I am also RC and we are quite clearly told the story of Jesus’ death.

Pontius Pilate ( a Roman) authorised it after asking the mob to select which one to free - Jesus or Barabbas

There is no other narrative in Catholicism about this - it is very clear.

Never have I been taught that the Jewish people killed Jesus - never. I only encountered the idea online for the first time in debates like this.

I don’t want people, particularly Jewish people to fear we all think this or that we are taught it.

It must have come from somewhere in the past it it is absolutely not taught here.

HoldOnMiGenna · 25/04/2023 13:39

Why has so much of pro Black discourse been manipulated into corporate social media facilitated anti semitism both based on a lack of research and the subliminal and overt messaging that relative collective prosperity and collective discipline and boundaries to facilitate that reality wipes out the current reality of racism, murderous and not towards said group and an assumption that their history and identity belongs to others to erase and group?

The irony being that pro Blackness has been corporatised into the poppy show that any basic non Black or white socialised barely Black can seek and gain clout and recognition through Black people who are increasingly seeing the responsibility for our progress as the task for others ,not realising that play equals pay , yet out the other side of our non collective neck, we moan about our status.
Selling out Blackness to white queer theorists, party politricks, corporatised ghetto culture, fashion and entertainer£_s who are not even scared of Black censure anymore, as they denigrate continuously. What used to be a paragon of excellence, only imitable by the absolute creme de la creme of any "other” and where misogynoir from Black men was not allowed to become a carte blanche purview where Black woman and other women are now known as the same noun as a female dog and no Black woman can expect clout from large numbers of Black people if she doesn't gussy up like a Black drag queen's misogynistic version of a white street walker.
Then too many of us have embraced the notion of entertainers and sports people as "leaders", so that we now get to get narcissistic supply for these mostly divesting anti Black woman , low intellect , behind closed doors and half open nihilism and degeneracy embracing people when they speak out of turn, as if being an entertainer is a civil rights pursuit.

In the meantime, collectivism, moving in silence, the tribe before tribalism, collective sabotage in order to satisfy individual sex wants /indiscipline and the lack of hegemony, but expecting non Black people to respect a hegemony that isn't close to a reality for a Black Brit population that is both relatively small and hasn't got even a fifty year totally shared experience of the same type of oppression like in the Americas and unable to sing from the same song sheet (I sigh remembering how many Black meetings I have gone to that have turned into foolishness and fuckry with Black men partnered to white woman always having the most to say and failing to see any irony, whilst slagging The White Man).
When pro Blackness denigrates into using Massa's tools to try and break down Massa's house and caring more about White Supremacy than Black Pride, well, this is where Black Britain is.
We have allowed an over familiarity to manifest and we are the group that embraced "multiculturalism" the most of any group of people, not seeing it for the anti monoracial Black ( within and outside of the "community") purview that it is and the severance of any large scale helpful ties that generational British White working class and Black working class, especially in London used by have, with Blairism and post Blair liberal media and sell out Black politicians of the Lammyesque bent sending the message that it was white middle class leftists and liberals that were and are the white people in the UK most "down" for us.

Pro Blackness has become gentrified and anti intellectualised and is riven with populist discourse, the better for disingenuous, pandering Black and other people to make money off of Black pain , anti semitism and White Supremacy.
I preferred it when pro Blackness at any social level had an obvious intellectual, not jealous of any other, Black Pride, non validation seeking purview and where stanning wasn't the main prism through which being pro Black was seen.

Diane Abbott's bloom fell off of her , for me when she wrote an article on The Voice just slagging off illegal Jamaican migrants, decrying that they , after years of living here still sounded as if they just landed. Why was she perpetrating Barber Shop Talk in Black newspaper as a politician and one of a Jamaican background? Then I saw that Rich White man, ex Tory MP and perjurer Johnathan Aitken is a godparent for her son and she got her son christened in Westminster, that same temple of officiation of centuries long oppression of worldwide and national populations and I knew that she spent her life running from a Blackness she cannot escape, but will use to pander to underthinking Black people she doesn't even like whilst she is one of those tertiary educated middle class Marxists that hate working class people of any persuasion , whilst being White, posh male identified, yet has a hate boner for White women.

I'm too Black and been Black for too long to give credence to unserious , panya machete Black people in positions of power like Diane Abbott who has chosen to throw away her on
1980s searing excellence, by playing to various populist peanut galleries over the decades.
Now for David Lammy's rawse. At least Sister Kemi isn't out here pretending that a man can flex a cervix and calling the ensurance of female rights " selfish".

Diane Abbott is useless for Black progress. Being Black does not mean not knowing when to put sentiment aside for common sense.
Furthermore, neither is "representation" meaningful for Black people if only beneficial to that individual. It's like we refuse to see the world through an adult prism , not knowing that entertainers cannot be leaders, that most politicians have a personality that enabled them to even think that they can represent people that is "off key" to say the least and then we do not seem to see that getting politicians to act on a community's behalf, there has to be financial collectivism , because politricks is now, more than ever about "pay to play" and moving in silence until mission accomplished.

Diane and them don't want to talk about that, though. An infantilised , feelings before facts mob is what these dullards need to make coin.
All the pro Black Black people of note worth a damn been dead or are on their last legs and none of quality and searing aim high, aim low intellect come from the U K, either.
Ms Abbott could have written a ten page letter about British Anti Blackness without co opting anti Blackness from anywhere else. She could have put Black people front and centre of her so called pro Black letter without mentioning any other oppressed group, thus diluting theirs and our oppression and if she wanted to make use of her Oxbridge education in the furthering of her pro Black anti racist argument, she is quite capable of reasoning in a linear manner. However she chose the peanut gallery circular reasoning route and hers and their narcissism coming before focused meaningful and impactful pro Blackness instead of validation seeking that corporate Pro Blackness is.
I'm just tired of seeing the same three fucking talking points on this site whenever Black people chat about anti Blackness. How pro Black can you be waking up with White Supremacy on your brain, but expecting White people to be the lead on anti racism and expect Black progress as a subsidiary of that pie in the sky without Black Collectivism out with White Paternalism?
We have no serious public pro Black Brits with no 'conflict of interests'.
There's a reason the diaspora laughs at "Black Britain'.

SpeedSnap · 25/04/2023 13:40

Notwavingbutsignalling · 25/04/2023 13:35

@SpeedSnap

just for the record, I am also RC and we are quite clearly told the story of Jesus’ death.

Pontius Pilate ( a Roman) authorised it after asking the mob to select which one to free - Jesus or Barabbas

There is no other narrative in Catholicism about this - it is very clear.

Never have I been taught that the Jewish people killed Jesus - never. I only encountered the idea online for the first time in debates like this.

I don’t want people, particularly Jewish people to fear we all think this or that we are taught it.

It must have come from somewhere in the past it it is absolutely not taught here.

We are Barabbas!

AutumnCrow · 25/04/2023 13:42

Notwavingbutsignalling · 25/04/2023 13:35

@SpeedSnap

just for the record, I am also RC and we are quite clearly told the story of Jesus’ death.

Pontius Pilate ( a Roman) authorised it after asking the mob to select which one to free - Jesus or Barabbas

There is no other narrative in Catholicism about this - it is very clear.

Never have I been taught that the Jewish people killed Jesus - never. I only encountered the idea online for the first time in debates like this.

I don’t want people, particularly Jewish people to fear we all think this or that we are taught it.

It must have come from somewhere in the past it it is absolutely not taught here.

I know @Notwavingbutsignalling, it's pre Vatican 2 stuff!

And then for the hard-of-budging, Pope Benedict XVI made it quite clear in 2011 what Catholic theology was on this - that there is not and should not be a concept of 'Jewish guilt'.

nopuppiesallowed · 25/04/2023 13:44

SpeedSnap · 25/04/2023 10:31

I've been informed my people killed Jesus ,

I don't know the context. This is factually correct if you believe in the Bible and even non Christians believe that a man named Jesus existed.

Jesus, his Mother and the Apostles were Jews, and the Book of revelation speaks about Jews, that too is factually correct for believers.

Are Biblical facts for many, now racist?

Mmmmm. According to my Bible, it was the Romans who beat up Jesus and nailed Him to the cross, not the Jews. Pontius Pilate, who was not a Jew, acctually tried to prevent His execution. Yes - it was some Jewish leaders who demanded His execution, but they were not the only ones complicit in it.... Jesus died for everyone's sins - Jews and non Jews - so in a way, everyone had a hand in it!

Coffeeandbourbons · 25/04/2023 13:49

nopuppiesallowed · 25/04/2023 13:44

Mmmmm. According to my Bible, it was the Romans who beat up Jesus and nailed Him to the cross, not the Jews. Pontius Pilate, who was not a Jew, acctually tried to prevent His execution. Yes - it was some Jewish leaders who demanded His execution, but they were not the only ones complicit in it.... Jesus died for everyone's sins - Jews and non Jews - so in a way, everyone had a hand in it!

Yes, the Italians are to blame (tongue in cheek)

MissyB1 · 25/04/2023 13:52

Notwavingbutsignalling · 25/04/2023 13:35

@SpeedSnap

just for the record, I am also RC and we are quite clearly told the story of Jesus’ death.

Pontius Pilate ( a Roman) authorised it after asking the mob to select which one to free - Jesus or Barabbas

There is no other narrative in Catholicism about this - it is very clear.

Never have I been taught that the Jewish people killed Jesus - never. I only encountered the idea online for the first time in debates like this.

I don’t want people, particularly Jewish people to fear we all think this or that we are taught it.

It must have come from somewhere in the past it it is absolutely not taught here.

Well I wasn’t taught that the Jews killed Jesus either, but the mob did choose him over Barabbus. The mob would clearly have been made up of probably mainly Jewish people, they had turned against him, why? I never quite worked that out. However it was not them who arrested him and gave an order, the Romans saw him as a troublemaker and wanted him out of the way.

And anyhow why would anyone hold a grudge about that these days even if they did blame the Jews? 🤷‍♀️
Sorry I maybe deeply unpopular for saying this, but I think very ancient misdeeds need yes to be remembered (we have to learn from the past), but we don’t need to use them to beat each other with now!

Iwasafool · 25/04/2023 14:02

dinkytoon · 25/04/2023 10:32

He only truly apologised last year in person when he had become a self-declared authoritative voice on anti-racism and this past was holding him back. He caused enormous pain to Jason Lee and many black footballers with his casual and pervasive belittling, bullying and constant racist stereotyping. When people as adults tell you who they are believe them - they are telling you who they are, and besides you accept his apology but not hers.

It wasn't a one off was it, I think he did it several times.

The clip posted up thread doesn't do him any credit either, talking about Pikeys and comparing a 3 year old child to an East European Prostitute. I don't know when it was but he clearly thought he was being hilarious when actually it was quite sickening. Who knew that a 3 year old child could look like a prostitute just because she's wearing pink. It was a sick thing to say and it was his own daughter.

I don't think anyone needs lecturing by him.

Coffeeandbourbons · 25/04/2023 14:04

And anyhow why would anyone hold a grudge about that these days even if they did blame the Jews? 🤷‍♀️ Sorry I maybe deeply unpopular for saying this, but I think very ancient misdeeds need yes to be remembered (we have to learn from the past), but we don’t need to use them to beat each other with now!

Well you’re not unpopular with me. Retrospective moral judgment is absolutely daft. No doubt we’ll be subject to the same in 100 years (or less)

Iwasafool · 25/04/2023 14:04

AutumnCrow · 25/04/2023 13:42

I know @Notwavingbutsignalling, it's pre Vatican 2 stuff!

And then for the hard-of-budging, Pope Benedict XVI made it quite clear in 2011 what Catholic theology was on this - that there is not and should not be a concept of 'Jewish guilt'.

Well I'm old enough to have been attending a Catholic school pre Vatican 2 and I was never taught that.