Diane Abbott

[Flowerly]

To say that Diane Abbott is doing her best to help the Labour Party to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory?

Hideous antisemitism seemingly not gone away at all and add that to the horrendous misogyny in the Labour Party I wonder at this point why ANYONE would vote for them.

AIBU?

It's before they enter the room on occasion for the Irish to this day, the British in Northern Ireland will throw their job application in the bin, based on their Irish name or attendance at a Catholic school even if they no longer are Catholic and didn't pick their name.

An apology does not negate disciplinary action. Yes, she has fully apologised but she still wrote those words and sent them to be published in a major newspaper causing significant damage to her political party as a result and requiring action from her party leader to avoid the scandal spreading further. I'm surprised how anyone can not see that her losing the whip was inevitable given the issues the Labour has faced with antisemitism. The Tories would have absolutely weaponised any idea that Starmer tolerated those fees within his party.

@SpeedSnap

"It's before they enter the room on occasion for the Irish to this day, the British in Northern Ireland will throw their job application in the bin, based on their Irish name or attendance at a Catholic school even if they no longer are Catholic and didn't pick their name."

And you think that doesn't happen to job applications with African/Asian sounding names?

They withdrew the whip. Why? Because they were investigating. Investigating what? She wrote a letter and apologised. What is there to investigate? It's all phooey. Placatory, gesture politics because in reality there really isn't any punishment.
And actually, I quite like to see what she really thinks as opposed to what she says when on message. It's much more informative. If we saw what politicians really thought, it would,make voting so much easier.

So you don't believe in Due Process? or Rules?

The Labour party, as do all parties, have rules on disciplinary actions... i.e the Tory MP suspended for being corrupt, he is being given the chance to put his side despite his corruption being recorded & rightly so.

The UK does not tolerate summary justice.

Oh I can well believe it happens. I am told however that it can't happen to an Irish person.

As I say Katherine was probably spot on about everyone being a little bit racist.

You can extend the “they said sorry” argument to its logical conclusion - which is that no one should ever be punished for anything. And in the case of DA, I’d rather she had the courage of her convictions rather than saying the letter was a “draft” . All this apologising by politicians/celebrities is so weaselly. But I suppose as someone with not much of a career to lose/old I can afford to say that.

He seems to want to replace all the old guard, whom without Labour would not be here today.

I'm sorry, but I agree with her in that one's appearance i.e colour has a more immediate effect on a person's ability to progress, achieve or even just be accepted in Western society.

Jewish, Irish and Roma people have also been persecuted over the centuries, but not in the way Black African/Asian heritage people have. They have not been owned, shipped, lynched, dehumanised or colonised for their own benefit. Then forced to fight for their freedom and land/resources/countries from imperialist governments, aside from the Irish.

Black African heritage and even darker-skinned Asian people cannot easily assimilate, and were/are often rejected from mainstream society, used and abused over many centuries and in some places even now. Whilst, this is the same with the Roma, they often choose to live that way, some also assimilate if they chose too, though maybe not in Romania or Italy.

I could go on. But, I fear many doing Diane Abbot down for this 'wrong' have no idea of the abuse, the disrespect for a senior politician, just because she's a black woman in a blinkered world stuck in the past. Only certain evils can be acknowledged and remembered. But not our massacres, kidnappings, genocide, theft of land and resources.

Many Black and Asian British people continue to face institutional bias (racism based on your face/name don't fit) in education, health, employment/career progression, law and from the police. But, no-one really cares about those issues except they face it, or those they care about do.

This thread is a clear indication that history teaching in schools needs to be significantly improved.

But there is no side to investigate. She's stated she sent the wrong letter, apologised abjectly and clarified her position. What is there to investigate? They're not investigating anything. They're just playing to the media.

The Tory MP is different because it could be corruption that could have happened before, there could be other factors, he might have bern tricked, made qualifying comments off tape etc. It's much more complex having other parties involved. This is a letter that she has explained. There's no similarity between the two.

Summary justice? I'm saying she's apologised and clarified and there's no need for a big pretend investigation.

If you believe she sent the wrong letter then, sorry, you will believe anything. And how do you think a letter based on that1st draft(!) would not be offensive? She is being investigated to see if she has broken various codes of conduct. As far as I am concerned there are lots of MPs who should be investigated for all sorts of practices.

she's acknowledged that what she said was wrong and has given an abject apology. I don't see why that can't be accepted nor do I understand why the whip has been withdrawn whilst they investigate.

Because she has displayed a shocking level of antisemitism. You could call it at the very least unconscious bias against Jewish people, and Irish people and travellers. That’s being overly charitable. It’s the underlying racism/ antisemitism that’s the problem, not just the letter.

I understand that her health is much improved now so maybe she was right to stick it out IDK

Yes she’s doing so much better now. Top of her game.

Not at all. People who retract and apologise should be listened to. You can draw from that what they do and don't believe. Persistent offenders who don't learn are a different matter. I'm not a corbynite but I respected Corbyn for refusing to apologise for something he maintained he hadn't done.
I'm not saying I either agree or disagree with Abbott because it's immaterial to the argument. She said something and she withdrew it. Suspension is all just role-play.

@SpeedSnap

"Oh I can well believe it happens. I am told however that it can't happen to an Irish person."

Your example shows that it can happen to an Irish person in Northern Ireland. It happens every day, on a much wider scale, all over the UK to Black/Asian people. I think that's what Diane Abbott was getting at, but phrased it badly.

I am not dismissing the Irish experience- it's absolutely vile and shit.

I don't think that Diane Abbot is an anti semite. Her lived experience is as a black woman in the uk and in uk politics. She has written what she has seen.

Because she has displayed a shocking level of antisemitism. You could call it at the very least unconscious bias against Jewish people, and Irish people and travellers.

Is it shocking or is it unconscious bias? To me ‘shocking’ is daubing anti Semitic slurs on a synagogue, or attacking a person for being Jewish.

We have to acknowledge there are ‘degrees of bad’ or the really shocking stuff gets lumped in with clumsy wording, micro aggressions and things that are ‘unconscious bias’.

Are children taught about pogroms in school? Judging by this thread they really ought to be.

She should not have brought other groups into it and not compared. She has said sorry and had the whip removed. There is now an interesting discussion happening as a result.

I was just talking to my daughter about racism and saying my Irish Uncle who lived in England most of his life told me not to date or marry an English man. He had four children, three never married and the one who did marry was his gay son who married an English man.

My Irish Dad who lived in England his whole life told me he would murder me and any child if I brought a black down the Isle. I know racism exists.

Yes definitely very racist.

Most are to be fair. I’ve read some unbelievable garbage about events I’ve lived through on here. There’s a lot of fifth hand Daily Mail nonsense posted as gospel truth.

@SpeedSnap

Thank you for your reply. Although we disagree on what Diane Abbott says thank you for your reasoned civil replies. It's lovely to actually have a discussion on Mumsnet with somebody with different viewpoints without it turning nasty.

I have to go out now but I've enjoyed your posts and insight and comments.

The irony in this comment. Read a book yourself but go further back.

Could you elaborate @Willyoujustbequiet ?

thats genuinely a history I don’t know about

Have a nice afternoon.

Yes my Dad made the comments about who I shouldn't marry after I brought some female friends home, I was so sad as I had to stop being friends with them, he made his comments after they left and was violent towards me. I never told them that I had to stop being friends because he may get physical with them too. He said if I had the girls in my life then it would encourage the men sniffing around and I wasn't to give him a black grandchild or he would kill us. I was 13. As I said earlier he is an arsehole, and I would have preferred to not have been born to him for many reasons.

Diane should have spoken about her experience, as most people can well believe things haven't been easy for her.

I actually agree with many of the points you make, however -

Jewish, Irish and Roma people have also been persecuted over the centuries, but not in the way Black African/Asian heritage people have. They have not been owned, shipped, lynched, dehumanised or colonised for their own benefit. Then forced to fight for their freedom and land/resources/countries from imperialist governments, aside from the Irish.

At best, this shows your ignorance about the Holocaust and the way Jews (and the Roma) were dehumanised long before they were rounded up, herded into cattle trucks and shipped to forced labour/concentration camps before being slaughtered in their millions.

I suppose I agree with Katherine in that most people are a bit racist as I include myself as she must include herself. If I wasn't a little bit racist too, I wouldn't have used violence as an excuse to drop my friends, they weren't worth the violence to me.