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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Diane Abbott

894 replies

Flowerly · 23/04/2023 12:02

To say that Diane Abbott is doing her best to help the Labour Party to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory?

Hideous antisemitism seemingly not gone away at all and add that to the horrendous misogyny in the Labour Party I wonder at this point why ANYONE would vote for them.

AIBU?

OP posts:
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33
Ortiguilla · 23/04/2023 20:27

MagicClawHasNoChildren · 23/04/2023 18:47

These threads invariably become a shitshow of antisemitism and antisemitic apologetics. I don't know how Jewish people in the UK cope with the casual dismissal of their very real experiences. I know quite a few left wing people who would be horrified at the idea that they're racist but who are also happy to say that they think that Jewish people need to stop banging on about the Holocaust, for example, or that Jewish people control various prestigious industries. They also invariably want Jewish people to justify the actions of Israel, regardless of their nationality or political affiliation.

David Baddiel has it exactly right. Jewish people are 'too white-passing' to experience racism, and yet too other not to be targeted with some frankly bizarre presumptions and prejudices. They can never win.

Thank you. The last few years have been absolutely horrendous. Corbyn really made it ok and normalised it. Made people feel it was ok to say things they would never have said 20 years ago. I've experienced it face to face as well as online.

Ortiguilla · 23/04/2023 20:29

AdamRyan · 23/04/2023 20:19

By one definition, but not by all.

And this is what I mean about language. That definition is fine but then it can be used to stop black people talking about their specific experience as they don't have a term for it.

It almost like it's forbidden to talk about colour as a driver of prejudice. Which of course is racism in itself.

Show quote history

You can talk about the specific and awful racism suffered by Black and Asian (e.g) people without having to effectively deny the Holocaust to do so.

She, along with the whole political faction, have an all-consuming hatred of Jews which has dominated their politics for a long time now.

onirgellep · 23/04/2023 20:29

Plbrookes · 23/04/2023 20:17

I'm not saying that the original article talks about Jewish people's experience of racism. I'm saying that Abbott wrote an response denying that Jewish people experienced racism but that they experienced prejudice of a nature akin to that experienced by red-headed people. It's awful that Abbott, and anyone else, has experienced racist abuse. But that doesn't give her a pass to be antisemitic.

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The original article was mainly about different ethnic groups experience of verbal abuse - not their general experience of prejudice/discrimination - but then drawing wider conclusions not entirely supported by the research presented

DA's response needs to be seen in that context

MalagaNights · 23/04/2023 20:30

AdamRyan · 23/04/2023 20:19

By one definition, but not by all.

And this is what I mean about language. That definition is fine but then it can be used to stop black people talking about their specific experience as they don't have a term for it.

It almost like it's forbidden to talk about colour as a driver of prejudice. Which of course is racism in itself.

Show quote history

No. You are making up a definition for racism which is about colour.

Racism is about race.

No one is stopping black people talking about their experiences of racism. It's just not unique to black people.
Black people can talk about black people's experience of racism.
Jews can talk about their experience of racism.
Different experiences, both racism.

Ortiguilla · 23/04/2023 20:30

notanotheroneagain · 23/04/2023 18:04

Yes, she is.

I forgot that part. Don't know how she is seen as 'anti-semitic' at the same time.

I think the main thing is that 'racist' seems rightly, the worst thing to be. So some may feel prejudices against themselves are not taken as seriously. Hence the defence. I think everyone would agree that racism/homophobia/anti semitism/ colourism (including hair colourism)/misogyny etc. are all bad.

But I think we have to also recognise how some forms of bigotry change and affect someone's life at a deeper level than others.

Will your son just be stopped and searched on the street?
Arrested and tackled by police,(sometimes killed) even when they did nothing wrong?
Police not bother with deep investigation when something happens to you?
Will someone not call you for an interview because of who they think you are based on your name on the CV, or what you look like during the interview or your picture?

Apologises to the posters who took offence about my description of a black person, basically. But I was agreeing with most of what poc are saying on this thread.

Show quote history

Whoopi Goldberg isn't remotely Jewish and has never claimed to be

weightymatters73 · 23/04/2023 20:32

I think this is a very specific problem within the Labour party. Labour has been allied since the 70's with "Anti-Israel" feeling (and frankly Israel does have many issues in relation to Palestine).

BUT this is then conflated with "All Jews are oppressors" and the fact they are a hugely oppressed race of people who are physically distinct from "white" is air-brushed. For this era of labour MP's, Jews are automatically the bad guys and the holocaust is conveniently forgotten.

Within the Labour party there is also the view that the Tories are "worse" (there is even a thread on Mumsnet going on today on that tenet)....except as a political party the Tories they generally speaking are more tolerant and inclusive, more ethnically and racially diverse....it's actually the Labour party that has the majority of the racism problems in politics.

I have been involved in politics for nearly 30 years, the Labour party have a long long way to go with diversity and inclusiveness - to the extent it may lose them the next election (which is currently theirs for the taking!)

Equalitea · 23/04/2023 20:32

Flowerly · 23/04/2023 12:05

Unspeakable really. David Baddiel on twitter has re-posted a clip of him talking about antisemitism which is excellent. She should watch it.

His book, ‘Jews don’t count’ is brilliant.

MalagaNights · 23/04/2023 20:34

The dismissal of the experience of Jews of racism on this thread takes my breath away.

It's grotesque.

It's clear antisemitism is on the rise again in the West after 80 short years.

You can see it here.

It's grotesque.

rootsandfruits1 · 23/04/2023 20:38

AdamRyan · 23/04/2023 20:14

Prejudice against who?
I feel like I'm missing something. Is it offensive or antisemitic to talk about black people's experience without mentioning the holocaust?

Is it offensive to consider antisemitism as separate to racism? Why?

I would define racism as being about colour so a visual marker. Antisemitism seems different as likely to affect Jewish people regardless of their visual appearance? Is that an antisemitic thing to say?

I would define racism as being about colour so a visual marker.

You were given a dictionary definition of racism and you deliberately ignored it. So is that not good enough for you. Do you have some kind of personal sliding colour scale to measure whether or not a person has or hasn't suffered racism? Your semantics are quite something, as is your blind defence of Diane Abbot when its been overwhelmingly shown across the media/social media all day that her comments were racist.

rootsandfruits1 · 23/04/2023 20:40

@MalagaNights Yes, it's really upsetting.

Jourdain11 · 23/04/2023 20:43

If antisemitism is discrimination against a race, then it's racism. The same was that discriminating against black people, or Chinese people, or Indian people, or Arabs, is racism.

People with red hair aren't a race, so that's straightforward discrimination. Nor are, for example, French people - so that's xenophobia.

Thepeopleversuswork · 23/04/2023 20:46

And this is what I mean about language. That definition is fine but then it can be used to stop black people talking about their specific experience as they don't have a term for it.

But why is acknowledging that Jews have been the subject of racism stopping black people discussing their experience of racism?

loislovesstewie · 23/04/2023 20:47

@MalagaNights yes, I agree with you.

TeapotElephant · 23/04/2023 20:50

Florenz · 23/04/2023 20:15

The point is that people have the idea that there are factions within Labour with some very extreme, nasty views. If Abbott is prepared to go public with these views, what kind of views are being expressed behind closed doors?

And again, the same with the stories. If they can be public with some of their views then who knows what goes on behind closed doors?

It’s so odd that you keep giving the stories a get out of jail free card for exactly the same thing…

TeapotElephant · 23/04/2023 20:51

Tories not stories!

TeapotElephant · 23/04/2023 20:54

Ortiguilla · 23/04/2023 20:27

Thank you. The last few years have been absolutely horrendous. Corbyn really made it ok and normalised it. Made people feel it was ok to say things they would never have said 20 years ago. I've experienced it face to face as well as online.

Show quote history

I don’t understand; I know about the accusations against Corbyn and the lack of him ousting people, but how has he (personally) normalised antisemitism?

This question sounds goady but it isn’t meant. It’s a genuine question from curiosity. As I don’t get how it’s attributed to him so feel I must have missed something - possibly quite a lot?

MedievalMadness · 23/04/2023 20:59

So if being Jewish is not a race, why does it show up in my DNA on my Ancestry results? Why are some genetic diseases more prevalent among Jewish people?

*It's certainly not because of a religious belief. 🙄

Thank you. My ancestory.co.uk result came back as 100%European Jewish. My great nephew died of a condition only Ashkenazi Jews have. My GP refer Jewish couples for genetic screening if they ask before starting families.

Is there anything else people would like to take away from us. We are apparently not a race, we changed our family names on arrival in the Uk, we were told not to wear signs of our faith because they make us a target.

I have no religious belief but I am an Orthdox Jew and live in a Jewish area. Our cemeteries are frequently vandalised, bricks thrown through windows, swastikas scrawled on the gates of our synagogue, and those of us who just happen to look typically Jewish like me, have been called a fucking Jew? I’ve been bullied at work, my DGD at 7 has been racially targeted at her school where she is the only Jewish child. Diane Abbott can fuck the fuck off and anyone else who don’t think we experience racism, along with people of Irish and Travellers.

MedievalMadness · 23/04/2023 21:01

Just to clarify Diane Abbott can fuck the fuck off and anyone else who don’t think we experience racism, along with people of Irish and Travellers.. I didn’t mean Irish and Travellers should FO. I meant we ALL experience racism.

woodhill · 23/04/2023 21:02

Yes how absolutely awful for you.

She really is a piece of work

anotherside · 23/04/2023 21:17

I think everything thinks what she said was badly worded. But it’s interesting that, on this thread alone, there have been at least three Jewish people defending the gist of her point. There comments were largely ignore of course. Which is pretty similar to what happened to the hundreds of voices from Jewish Labour who spoke up to defend Jeremy Corbyn - all completely ignored by the media, in favour of articles by non-Jewish columnists seemingly claiming to speak on behalf of every Jewish person in Britain (printed in newspapers which saw fit to mock Jewish Labour leader Ed Miliband for how he ate a bacon sandwich).

ATerrorofLeftovers · 23/04/2023 21:17

MalagaNights · 23/04/2023 20:34

The dismissal of the experience of Jews of racism on this thread takes my breath away.

It's grotesque.

It's clear antisemitism is on the rise again in the West after 80 short years.

You can see it here.

It's grotesque.

As a Jew, I completely agree with you. Reading this thread has made me feel so, so sick.

Diane Abbot has been the target of appalling racism over and over, but this doesn’t mean she gets a free pass to be racist herself.

As for those insisting there’s a hierarchy of racism and those with black skin are at the top of it, with other peoples’ experience of racism being lesser? Words fail.

Willyoujustbequiet · 23/04/2023 21:20

She is staggeringly ignorant to have said what she said and blatantly racist herself.

SpeedSnap · 23/04/2023 21:21

MedievalMadness · 23/04/2023 21:01

Just to clarify Diane Abbott can fuck the fuck off and anyone else who don’t think we experience racism, along with people of Irish and Travellers.. I didn’t mean Irish and Travellers should FO. I meant we ALL experience racism.

When I asked my FIL the full Jewish name I went off to research it for my children. What I found really odd was that I had to ask him as he hadn't told his children and they were learning their family history along with me. My Irish family in comparison couldn't tell you enough family history. I found it fascinating how far their ancestors had travelled.