Diane Abbott

[Flowerly]

To say that Diane Abbott is doing her best to help the Labour Party to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory?

Hideous antisemitism seemingly not gone away at all and add that to the horrendous misogyny in the Labour Party I wonder at this point why ANYONE would vote for them.

AIBU?

The Arabs also enslaved the people in Africa but apparently it was the right kind of slavery

I'm deeply offended just by her name being mentioned !

The woman is so unhinged it's unreal , how the hell she keeps getting re-elected as an MP is just beyond me

Totally agree, it’s ok for some politicians to be opening racist - right wing politicians that is. The media (and plenty of mumsnetters) will give them an easy ride.

Sorry don't agree with your capture hypothesis

She's always held these views ever since she joined the Young Socialists back in the 70s which was riddled with 'Trots' with similiar views on Israel

The original article doesn't talk about the Jewish people's experience of racism. It basically says "white people experience racism too" with no commentary about what that means. The author lumped racist against jews/antisemitism with racism including verbal abuse against other non-black groups, to score points about "white people are victims too".

Using that measure red heads do experience racism as they get verbal abuse for it, based on the melanin in their skin.

You are basically arguing the same point as her. She made the mistake of using the same language as the title of the article. But she was arguing about the content.

I am not a Diane Abbott fan but she has suffered awful racist abuse. And to me this seems the same. She must be "antisemitic" for pointing out the flaws in someone else's article.

I think the other article is terrible. The author has made huge statistical flaws in his analysis to try to prove a point which is at best unhelpful.

She is exactly how I describe her .I found everything she said extremely offensive.
No idea what you mean by
"racist old gits "?

So I go back to my original question.
How do black people talk about their unique oppression if they can't use the word racism?
Historically racism has been understood to mean oppression of black people by white people. Expanding that definition takes away black peoples ability to talk about that oppression.

@AdamRyan Quite easily - by not comparing it to the racism experienced by other minorities!! It's really that simple. No one has suggested they can't use the word racism. Your so-called hierarchy of racism is actually responsible for continued (and worsening prejudice and hate) against other minority groups.

Here's the Merriam definition of racism for you - which part of this do you think doesn't apply to how Nazis of the so-called 'master race' viewed Jews and their inferior non-Aryan traits (thereby justifying their extermination)? You know, that 'unique' as you keep putting it, oppression of one group over another...

a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

Your persistence is now just coming across as deep prejudice.

I’m really sad to see Diane Abbot has had to go this way after years of enduring the worst racist and misogynistic abuse. Really Starmer had no choice. She shouldn’t have worded it in the way she did but most people can understand what she meant. That Jews, Irish travelers and Romani can generally pass as white members of the population, where as black people and brown people simply can’t. Of course they shouldn’t have to ‘pass’ (ie. Not wear traditional dress etc) but they are not generally black and brown skinned so don’t experience the specific prejudice that comes with that. She should not have worded it as not being racism though. I’m sure if she was Boris no one would give a shite though.

@onirgellep

Sorry don't agree with your capture hypothesis

"Capture" was probably the wrong word. But the point holds that large parts of the left are suspicious of Jewish people and conflate Jewishness with the state of Israel. Corbyn and his Momentum henchmen certainly were steeped in this.

I am not a Diane Abbott fan but she has suffered awful racist abuse. And to me this seems the same. She must be "antisemitic" for pointing out the flaws in someone else's article.

She's made herself very comfortable with some truly awful antisemites over the last 40 years, so yes, her comments today are consistent with that and I'm personally quite convinced she holds deeply prejudiced views about Jews. And yes, she has suffered awful racist abuse (and misogyny) during that time. Doesn't make her bigotry OK.

Large parts of the extreme left wing of the Labour Party like DA and Corbyn have held these views forever - the election of Corbyn supported by Momentum was a disaster allowing some of these ideas to become more mainstream

It's why I left

Prejudice against who?
I feel like I'm missing something. Is it offensive or antisemitic to talk about black people's experience without mentioning the holocaust?

Is it offensive to consider antisemitism as separate to racism? Why?

I would define racism as being about colour so a visual marker. Antisemitism seems different as likely to affect Jewish people regardless of their visual appearance? Is that an antisemitic thing to say?

The point is that people have the idea that there are factions within Labour with some very extreme, nasty views. If Abbott is prepared to go public with these views, what kind of views are being expressed behind closed doors?

I know nothing about her views generally so of course, she could be antisemitic. But I think this letter seems to be clumsy (quoting the original article) rather than deliberate?

Racism is about racial difference. Under British law being Jewish or a Traveller is a protected characteristic in relation to race.

I'm not saying that the original article talks about Jewish people's experience of racism. I'm saying that Abbott wrote an response denying that Jewish people experienced racism but that they experienced prejudice of a nature akin to that experienced by red-headed people. It's awful that Abbott, and anyone else, has experienced racist abuse. But that doesn't give her a pass to be antisemitic.

Saying that Jewish people have been not suffered from racism any more than people with red hair isn't innocent, clumsy or accidental.

It is a horrendous thing to say.

By one definition, but not by all.

And this is what I mean about language. That definition is fine but then it can be used to stop black people talking about their specific experience as they don't have a term for it.

It almost like it's forbidden to talk about colour as a driver of prejudice. Which of course is racism in itself.

She has one of the largest majorities in the country over 33,0000 in 2019

So obviously popular in N Hackney & Stoke Newington

No one's forbidding anyone from discussing anything, or defining any parameters for the conversation other than those denying the experiences of Jews and Travellers in relation to racism.

It is one definition, yes, the legal definition.

Her viewpoint is very common in America. I had to leave an otherwise really supportive Facebook group because of views like hers being discussed. I tried to counter it with the history of the Irish, Jews, Romani and others but was told I was racist so I just left. I was told I was not allowed to have an opinion because I was talking over Black people’s experiences. I did inform them that, due to my own heritage, I have been call scum regularly but was told it was different because it’s “white on white”. My feeling was that they were quite ignorant to the history that such people have faced and they weren’t willing to learn.

Who on earth is voting her in. Everytime she pops up she either appears drunk or not quite woken up. Could she have had some sort of stroke? She clearly is unwell and has been for years.

Is it offensive to consider antisemitism as separate to racism? Why?

Yes it's extremely offensive.
And you are missing something crucial.
The Jews are a race.

A race which has, only 80 years ago experienced death camps in Europe and continues to be threatened with extermination.
The hatred of the Jews is racism in a very pure form.

It's evil, pernicious and it seems enduring.

And it isn't what she said either.
I feel like I'm getting drawn into looking antisemitic where i actually just don't like seeing someone being castigated fir something they didn't say, so I'm bowing out now