Page 18 | Diane Abbott

Flowerly · 2023-04-23T11:02:30+00:00

To say that Diane Abbott is doing her best to help the Labour Party to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory? Hideous antisemitism seemingly not gone away at all and add that to the horrendous misogyny in the Labour Party I wonder at this point why ANYONE would vote for them. AIBU?

AdamRyan · 23/04/2023 17:14

DojaPhat · 23/04/2023 16:58

However I still think she's entitled to point out that black people have been systematically oppressed in a unique way, and have no term to describe that experience.

Which is a very very clever thing if you think about it. If "everyone" can suffer racism then there's no need for specific language to describe specific forms of racism because 'it's all bad'. And given that someone like Rachel riley is jewish, she is at equal risk as someone like Alison Hammond, a Black woman, from experiencing racism. Very smart.

Exactly this.
And then no need to put in specific actions to support people because "everyone can suffer from racism".

The whining when people talk about their specific experiences amazes me. E.g. men having to talk about their post natal depression. White people complaining about racism in Saudi Arabia.

The aim is to silence people with a genuine concern and it's working.

Socialdistancechampion · 23/04/2023 17:15

Alexandra2001 · 23/04/2023 16:52

Long wondered whether DA is unwell, even when she isn't saying something stupid/wrong, she seems to lack any sort of coherence, after all, she is almost 70, could easily have some sort of degenerative illness.

But MN bullies will pile in regardless.

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Stop making excuses based on age. No one is forgiving of the racist old gits down the pub because "oh they could have some degenerative disease setting in"

People, quite rightly, pulled up those doing the "oh he's old it's probably dementia" with the Dalai Lama recently.

You can't blame her age when she has form for shooting her mouth off

Coffeeandbourbons · 23/04/2023 17:15

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Whoops Goldberg is Jewish isn’t she?

CalloohCallayFrabjousDay · 23/04/2023 17:15

Not surprised to see that anti-semitism is still alive and kicking in the Labour Party...

Coffeeandbourbons · 23/04/2023 17:15

*whoopi

DojaPhat · 23/04/2023 17:16

They were all typical African black looking.

I am astonished someone typed out this sentence and just carried on as though it's just a normal comment to make. This thread is a cesspit.

AdamRyan · 23/04/2023 17:22

danceyourselfdizzy1 · 23/04/2023 17:12

There is very much a view in these circles that some sorts of racism are more acceptable than others and Jews are often treated by these people as being in a class of their own because they are so obsessed with the Israel/Palestine situation and Jews are (wrongly) positioned as complicit in this. David Baddiel has talked a lot about the way British Jews are often required to state their position on Israel when talking to people on the left as if they required to "cleanse" themselves of any alliance with or support for Israel in order to be classed as an oppressed group of people

I'll give you a very clear example of this. A friend of mine - Jewish - was hounded out a Labour CLP meeting (literally told to leave) because he wouldn't denounce Israel's right to exist. He has NO connection to Israel (apart from the fact he believed it to be a safe space for the remaining Jews in Europe who weren't exterminated. Because where else were they supposed to go). This is a position shared by many British Jews. This was terrifying for him, and it's the sort of behaviour in my CLP that became normalised and perfectly accepted by people like Corbyn, Abbot and their followers. It has now sadly become a normalised way to talk about Jews and minimise their fears, and not just by the far left - basically Jews have become fair game again

However I still think she's entitled to point out that black people have been systematically oppressed in a unique way, and have no term to describe that experience.

@AdamRyan Fine, so what would you say to elements of the British left that don't allow Jews to point how they have been systematically oppressed in a unique way without being shouted down with 'what about Palestine' 'what about Baddiel' etc etc. Abbot is entitled to say this, of course, but what she actually did today in doing so was suggest that Jews, Roma and Irish have not suffered unique oppression(s). Sorry, but I think Diane Abbot is an active enabler of antisemitism, as are many people on this thread.

I'd say they were being anti semitic. Obviously. And no she didn't suggest anything about the oppression other groups face. She said:

Tomiwa Owolade claims that Irish, Jewish and Traveller people all suffer from “racism” (“Racism in Britain is not a black and white issue. It’s far more complicated”, Comment). They undoubtedly experience prejudice. This is similar to racism and the two words are often used as if they are interchangeable. It is true that many types of white people with points of difference, such as redheads, can experience this prejudice. But they are not all their lives subject to racism. In pre-civil rights America, Irish people, Jewish people and Travellers were not required to sit at the back of the bus. In apartheid South Africa, these groups were allowed to vote. And at the height of slavery, there were no white-seeming people manacled on the slave ships.

She mentioned Jewish and Travellers specifically in response to the article she was replying to, and she said They undoubtedly experience prejudice. This is similar to racism and the two words are often used as if they are interchangeable

I really don't see how this is offensive?

I do think the prejudice Jews face could be described as racism but personally I would use antisemitism instead as it is more precise.

I haven't read the article she was replying to but I think people are ignoring the point she was making to level accusations of antisemitism which I actually don't see the evidence for in that letter

danceyourselfdizzy1 · 23/04/2023 17:25

AdamRyan · 23/04/2023 17:14

Exactly this.
And then no need to put in specific actions to support people because "everyone can suffer from racism".

The whining when people talk about their specific experiences amazes me. E.g. men having to talk about their post natal depression. White people complaining about racism in Saudi Arabia.

The aim is to silence people with a genuine concern and it's working.

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The aim is to silence people with a genuine concern and it's working

Literally what you've done on several occasions in this thread.

SleepDreamThinkHuge · 23/04/2023 17:29

The way people minimise racism here is disgusting. "Abbott is a MP it is worse than Baddiel." This is the same guy who made books, documentaries and explained the anti semitism he faced but also knew better it was not the 1900s where he did make fun of travellers and black people. It does not matter if you are a MP, religious figure, teacher, banker, comedian, Jim down the street etc racism is still racism and whoever does it needs calling out.

AdamRyan · 23/04/2023 17:29

danceyourselfdizzy1 · 23/04/2023 17:25

The aim is to silence people with a genuine concern and it's working

Literally what you've done on several occasions in this thread.

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Eh?
Who have i silenced and how? Or is it just that I'm not enthusiastically "All lives matter!" enough for you?

I hate racism. I think Jewish people deserve to have their experience recognised as do Black people. However when a black woman talks about black oppression, and other people castigate her for not being careful enough to fully include other experiences, it smacks of whataboutery to me.

maddy68 · 23/04/2023 17:33

I agree. She's toxic.

Socialdistancechampion · 23/04/2023 17:33

AdamRyan · 23/04/2023 17:29

Eh?
Who have i silenced and how? Or is it just that I'm not enthusiastically "All lives matter!" enough for you?

I hate racism. I think Jewish people deserve to have their experience recognised as do Black people. However when a black woman talks about black oppression, and other people castigate her for not being careful enough to fully include other experiences, it smacks of whataboutery to me.

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But she wasn't saying "all racism is bad" she was implying there is a hierarchy of racism. That's also what's been implied through this thread too. Not that racism is awful but there is a hierarchy to it and some are more oppressed than others - which is insanity. Racism is disgusting no matter who it comes from and who it is aimed at.

Coffeeandbourbons · 23/04/2023 17:35

I thought she was saying antisemitism wasn’t racism at all? Rather than a ‘hierarchy’?

Blossomtoes · 23/04/2023 17:36

SleepDreamThinkHuge · 23/04/2023 17:29

The way people minimise racism here is disgusting. "Abbott is a MP it is worse than Baddiel." This is the same guy who made books, documentaries and explained the anti semitism he faced but also knew better it was not the 1900s where he did make fun of travellers and black people. It does not matter if you are a MP, religious figure, teacher, banker, comedian, Jim down the street etc racism is still racism and whoever does it needs calling out.

Except nobody’s done that. The fact remains that Baddiel is a private individual and it’s entirely up to him what he says. We should - and do - hold our elected representatives to a higher standard.

TattiePants · 23/04/2023 17:39

SleepDreamThinkHuge · 23/04/2023 16:25

She did apologise and withdraw her comments same as Baddiel. Funny how people want Abbott to be sacked and she cannot be redeemed but someone like Baddiel can say things against multiple groups e.g. travellers and black people and still be forgiven. Surely everyone should have a chance for redemption? If one does and the other does not that is hypocrisy.

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The difference is that what Baddiel said and did was in the mid 90s when unfortunately there was plenty of racist, sexist and disablist ‘entertainment’ on TV to choose from. It doesn’t excuse what he did but he’s rightly apologised. DA’s views are current and I don’t buy the mistaken draft excuse, if she didn’t hold those views she wouldn’t have written them even in a first draft.

Funnily enough, I expect more from elected officials than I do from entertainers.

AdamRyan · 23/04/2023 17:46

Socialdistancechampion · 23/04/2023 17:33

But she wasn't saying "all racism is bad" she was implying there is a hierarchy of racism. That's also what's been implied through this thread too. Not that racism is awful but there is a hierarchy to it and some are more oppressed than others - which is insanity. Racism is disgusting no matter who it comes from and who it is aimed at.

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If by a "hierarchy of racism" you mean racism against some groups is more serious than others, then yes, there absolutely is a hierarchy of racism. You'd have to be stupid to think there isn't. A white person getting called names for being Irish is not at all the same as the systematic prejudice black people face.

DojaPhat · 23/04/2023 17:49

Of course there's a hierarchy of racism!

DojaPhat · 23/04/2023 17:51

By that there are some minoritised groups you can mock and denigrate to your hearts content while doing so to others would leave you jobless before the sun sets.

TeapotElephant · 23/04/2023 17:51

I honestly don't think the racism in the Tories runs as deeply

What the actual fuck @Florenz ? So ‘letterboxes’ and ‘watermelon smiles’ all openly published in a column and dismissed easily was all good was it?

This casual attitude towards racism (and sexism and classism) within the Tories is insanely dangerous. So so dangerous. And terrifying. At least with Labour it’s getting called out and, hopefully, weaned out. If she goes it’s another step to getting one party on track. Meanwhile, the Tories continue to be racist (sexist and classist) openly and people like you minimise it.

So dangerous.

Coffeeandbourbons · 23/04/2023 17:53

@TeapotElephant Boris Johnson isn’t there entire Tory party.

Like it or not they’re the only party to have had a female leader (!!! Not PM, LEADER!), have installed a woman as PM twice, have installed the first non-white PM and have a very diverse cabinet.

Labour haven’t even had a female leader, let alone non-white.

All very well saying how anti racist and sexist you are, but if you can’t trust women or non whites enough to make them leader, what use is it? Labour may say all the right things but it’s clear they only feel safe with a white man in charge.

SpeedSnap · 23/04/2023 17:54

AdamRyan · 23/04/2023 17:46

If by a "hierarchy of racism" you mean racism against some groups is more serious than others, then yes, there absolutely is a hierarchy of racism. You'd have to be stupid to think there isn't. A white person getting called names for being Irish is not at all the same as the systematic prejudice black people face.

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Irish children were taught Irish and British names so they knew who would potentially harm them.

There is a reason behind this scene, the Irish struggled with employment opportunities due to their race in their own land by those who came along to march around reminding them that they stole their land.

The Difference Between Catholics and Protestants | Derry Girls | Channel 4

Father Peter sets out on an ill-fated attempt to bond the Catholic and Protestant schools.Subscribe to Channel 4 Comedy: https://bit.ly/2OCDHlcWatch the FULL...

https://youtu.be/0j0OF-TlyAY

soddingspiderseason · 23/04/2023 17:55

"If by a "hierarchy of racism" you mean If by a "hierarchy of racism" you mean racism against some groups is more serious than others, then yes, there absolutely is a hierarchy of racism. You'd have to be stupid to think there isn't. A white person getting called names for being Irish is not at all the same as the systematic prejudice black people face".

When your entire race has been faced with factories of death to systematically murder anyone from your race, then that is s but more than 'prejudice'. I was privileged to have holocaust survivors come to my school, and I am forever marked by their testimony. Your attempts to minimise the existential threat of complete genocide that Jewish people have faced is frankly, deeply offensive.

IClaudine · 23/04/2023 17:55

AdamRyan · 23/04/2023 17:29

Eh?
Who have i silenced and how? Or is it just that I'm not enthusiastically "All lives matter!" enough for you?

I hate racism. I think Jewish people deserve to have their experience recognised as do Black people. However when a black woman talks about black oppression, and other people castigate her for not being careful enough to fully include other experiences, it smacks of whataboutery to me.

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I don't think people are castigating her for "not being careful enough to fully include other experiences". Well I am not. The issue is her letter's dismissive attitude to racism against Jewish people, Irish people and travellers. Maybe it really was a clumsy first draft or something but the thought process seems to be there and it is very troubling.

I like Diane and she has been through a hell of a lot in terms of the racist abuse she has had flung at her from day one of being an MP. But that letter was inexcusable.

TeapotElephant · 23/04/2023 17:57

Coffeeandbourbons · 23/04/2023 17:53

@TeapotElephant Boris Johnson isn’t there entire Tory party.

Like it or not they’re the only party to have had a female leader (!!! Not PM, LEADER!), have installed a woman as PM twice, have installed the first non-white PM and have a very diverse cabinet.

Labour haven’t even had a female leader, let alone non-white.

All very well saying how anti racist and sexist you are, but if you can’t trust women or non whites enough to make them leader, what use is it? Labour may say all the right things but it’s clear they only feel safe with a white man in charge.

The idea that having a female leader or a non-white leader means there is no racism or sexism in the party is utterly bonkers.

You think Boris is the only racist in the Tories? There are LOADS of examples of their MPs saying such things and it often goes unchecked. The reason why I mention BN is because he openly published those things and there were NO repercussions, in fact he went on to be PM. How that isn’t red flags to you I have no idea. It confirms the underlying racism within that party and dismissing or minimising it IS fucking dangerous.

And if you actually read my comments you would see I haven’t supported Labour once. I said earlier they’re all disgusting.

loislovesstewie · 23/04/2023 17:58

On another note, I don't think that any of the female Tory PMs are much to write home about.