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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Diane Abbott

894 replies

Flowerly · 23/04/2023 12:02

To say that Diane Abbott is doing her best to help the Labour Party to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory?

Hideous antisemitism seemingly not gone away at all and add that to the horrendous misogyny in the Labour Party I wonder at this point why ANYONE would vote for them.

AIBU?

OP posts:
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33
malapast · 23/04/2023 14:09

DojaPhat · 23/04/2023 14:06

David Baddiel's rebrand as an authoritative voice in anti-racism is remarkably impressive. Astonishing really.

Quite - did he ever apologise or explain ?

Diane Abbott
Coffeeandbourbons · 23/04/2023 14:10

malapast · 23/04/2023 14:09

Quite - did he ever apologise or explain ?

Maybe I won’t watch his documentary after all Confused

Fandabedodgy · 23/04/2023 14:11

The whip has been removed.

Rightly

AdamRyan · 23/04/2023 14:11

highfidelity · 23/04/2023 14:08

I'm a Jewish woman, so I can experience (and have experienced) not only misogyny, but also antisemitism and racism.

For many, Jews are either too white, or not white enough when really, we're not white at all, we're a whole other ethnic group. This is why we can experience racism.

HTH.

You are missing my point.

If you were a black woman, what term would you use to describe the specific oppression black people face, due to their history? If "racism" is something anyone can experience?

Coffeeandbourbons · 23/04/2023 14:11

highfidelity · 23/04/2023 14:08

I'm a Jewish woman, so I can experience (and have experienced) not only misogyny, but also antisemitism and racism.

For many, Jews are either too white, or not white enough when really, we're not white at all, we're a whole other ethnic group. This is why we can experience racism.

HTH.

What’s the difference between antisemitism and racism?

highfidelity · 23/04/2023 14:12

Coffeeandbourbons · 23/04/2023 14:07

Ok I will. But again, I don’t think racism means ‘anyone Hitler would’ve sent to an extermination camp’.

Hitler most certainly would not have sent the Master Race - Aryans - to the gas chambers. But he happily sent other white ethic groups like the Slavs because he considered them ethnically inferior.

firef1y · 23/04/2023 14:12

Coffeeandbourbons · 23/04/2023 14:02

Well then the Jewish Learning organisation looks daft as well doesn’t it?

Having read a lot of history books and historical novels, it would appear that in common with the Roma, the Jewish people tried as much as possible to marry and procreate among their own. Which means that they are genetically a lot more similar than groups that have married and procreated among the various ethnic groups that have invaded and colonised (say) England over the centuries.

I'm guessing that Philippa Gregory did her research before writing "The Queen's Fool) and that tells the story of a Jewish girl who is brought to England to escape persecution in the years between Henry VIII and Elizabeth I. That despite efforts to assimilate, to the point of eating pork and going to church, the kept their faith as best they could and she was found a Jewish husband (that was a fairly close relative).

With fewer potential matches available, within the Roma community it was (and still is truth be told) common for relatives of a closer affinity to marry than it is outside that community. I have know Jewish links, but I would assume that it at least was similar in that community.
This means that they are an ethnic group in a very genetic sense. I probably share far more genetically with a random Roma than someone who isn't.

Lampzade · 23/04/2023 14:13

highfidelity · 23/04/2023 14:04

Next you'll be telling me I don't understand antisemitism.

I am simply telling you that your statement that everyone can experience racism is incorrect.
Rather than throw low blows you should educate yourself on what racism entails.
Aunty Google is your friend

Dorisbonson · 23/04/2023 14:15

DonnaBanana · 23/04/2023 12:10

She said all Black people experience racism as a lifelong construct and white skinned people generally do not. She did not say that white skinned people never have experienced racism, just not universally and for “all their lives.” She may have been clumsy but do you really think Diane Abbott, a Black woman interested in civil rights, would be racist in the way people are painting her to be?

She said it was okay for her to send her children to private school and wrong for white people to do so. She has double standards. You can find the video on YouTube - "black mother's would do anything for their kids" implying other mothers wouldn't.

FrostyFifi · 23/04/2023 14:16

Are people claiming that racism is specifically prejudice against black people? Genuinely curious. I'd have assumed that if someone of Asian origin was called the P-word and beaten, that would be a racially motivated incident?
I'm trying to understand, by that definition, whose experience of prejudice and descrimination can be called racism, and whose can't. What is the yardstick here?

highfidelity · 23/04/2023 14:16

Lampzade · 23/04/2023 14:13

I am simply telling you that your statement that everyone can experience racism is incorrect.
Rather than throw low blows you should educate yourself on what racism entails.
Aunty Google is your friend

I'm not throwing any low blows. I know exactly what racism is and don't need you to tell me to google it.

But thank you anyway.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 23/04/2023 14:16

I absolutely don't agree that anyone can experience racism. As a white person, I have undoubtedly experienced prejudice on the basis of my skin colour while living abroad, but I have not experienced systemic oppression on the basis of my race, and it is unlikely that I ever will.

That said, there is no question in my mind that antisemitism is a form of racism.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 23/04/2023 14:17

I've got a huge soft spot for Diane Abbott. I don't really know why, she is such a total plonker as this shows yet again.

IsThePopeCatholic · 23/04/2023 14:18

Op, don’t fall into the trap of thinking that the Tories are not racist. Labour has an honourable history of fighting racism, whereas the Tories’ history on this is appalling.

Flowerly · 23/04/2023 14:18

malapast · 23/04/2023 14:02

If I was ungracious I would say you are parroting key themes the Tories are going to be majoring on in the very dirty next election - culture wars, because as sure as hell they aren't going to argue about their economic competency or fitness to govern.

I am first and foremost a feminist. Dismissing the concerns of women alarmed by identity politics as'culture wars' is not a great look. I left the LP over this and will always speak up about it.

OP posts:
Greenfairydust · 23/04/2023 14:19

@Flowerly
'' I wonder at this point why ANYONE would vote for them.''

Really?

Nice try, but no one is going to forget Brexit, the economy/our standards of living/the NHS being destroyed and suddenly decide to vote Tory.

Abbott has always been a liability and should go.

The country in general needs to get rid of the current corrupt Tory administration and nothing will change that.

CremeEggThief · 23/04/2023 14:20

YABU. Here we go again with Keith and his decisions!🙄

Lots of people agree with what she said and she didn't say anything in a nasty or disrespectful way.

I am Irish and have experienced plenty of ignorance and stupidity living in the UK since 1996, but I completely take her point that I haven't experienced racism in the same way as a black or bi-racial person.

soddingspiderseason · 23/04/2023 14:22

CremeEggThief · 23/04/2023 14:20

YABU. Here we go again with Keith and his decisions!🙄

Lots of people agree with what she said and she didn't say anything in a nasty or disrespectful way.

I am Irish and have experienced plenty of ignorance and stupidity living in the UK since 1996, but I completely take her point that I haven't experienced racism in the same way as a black or bi-racial person.

Oh for goodness sake! You are denying that Jewish people experience racism?! This is an absolutely ridiculous and offensive position.

moonspiral · 23/04/2023 14:22

Not really sure what she thought would happen

Whataretheodds · 23/04/2023 14:23

Flowerly · 23/04/2023 14:18

I am first and foremost a feminist. Dismissing the concerns of women alarmed by identity politics as'culture wars' is not a great look. I left the LP over this and will always speak up about it.

Surely you're not thinking the Conservative party will be better for women?

Flowerly · 23/04/2023 14:23

Greenfairydust · 23/04/2023 14:19

@Flowerly
'' I wonder at this point why ANYONE would vote for them.''

Really?

Nice try, but no one is going to forget Brexit, the economy/our standards of living/the NHS being destroyed and suddenly decide to vote Tory.

Abbott has always been a liability and should go.

The country in general needs to get rid of the current corrupt Tory administration and nothing will change that.

Why do you assume that pointing out the (huge) issues with the LP means that one must automatically vote Tory? It's a very bizarre mindset.

As you say though, nice try. 🙄

OP posts:
Ketzele · 23/04/2023 14:23

The way we discuss racism is so simplistic, and sadly Diane Abbott has added to that. It is absolutely true that modern Western racism is intertwined with our history as a colonial power and the growth of that power through the sugar/slave trades. Being black is the principal way people experience racism in this country right now.

As a white atheist of Jewish and Irish heritage, I wouldn't dream of suggesting I experience anywhere near the level of racism as black people's daily experience. On the other hand, I don't experience the level of daily racism suffered by the Chasidic Jews who live just a few miles from me.

The Jewish experience is instructive because it reminds us that racism finds a way to create racial difference even in the absence of black people. For centuries, Jews have been banned, banished, excluded, tortured and murdered. They were absolutely seen as physically different, as racially distinct.

My grandfather, who died just over a year ago, may not have had to sit at the back of the bus in his native Germany. But he wasn't allowed to get on the bus at all, or go to school, or restaurants, or public parks, or university. How can we possibly
learn about racism if we only recognise it in its most familiar manifestations?

Flowerly · 23/04/2023 14:23

Whataretheodds · 23/04/2023 14:23

Surely you're not thinking the Conservative party will be better for women?

Where did I say this?

OP posts:
Whataretheodds · 23/04/2023 14:24

You didn't, but that certainly sounded like where you were going

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