To think we try and encourage babies to be independent too soon?

[graciousgrace]

I just don't understand the obsession with wanting babies to be so independent so early on? I go to quite a few baby groups, and am constantly hearing comments like...

"I don't spoon feed my baby, I've encouraged self feeding from day one."

"My baby sleeps through the night because I didn't respond to their cries when they woke up."

"I don't rock my baby to sleep because they need to learn to put themselves to sleep and self soothe."

"I don't co-sleep because my baby needs to be in their own room in their own cot."

And the most shocking one of all... a mum at a baby group I went to said that her 7 month old baby "will only do a poo on the toilet"! Literally couldn't make it up!

As a mum who happily spoon feeds, co-sleeps and rocks my baby to sleep, it is so annoying hearing these comments because it's like these mums think they're superior. What's wrong with me wanting to treat my baby like a, you know, baby? I mean, great for you if those things work for you, but us mums who do things differently shouldn't be made to feel inadequate or like we're doing things wrong. Babies are only babies for such a short amount of time, so why can't we embrace the time when they actually need us to do things for them? I doubt I'll have a 15 year who still wants to be spoon fed, rocked to sleep and sleep in my bed 😂 does anyone agree or am I just being too sensitive?

@CatCake

And yet, you keep trying to reason.

All the while arguing that you're not defensive. Or that you don't think you're choice is superior. And that you do acknowledge the risk while denying them.

If I'm so unreasonable and ill informed then ..... ignore me.

You know best after all.

Well I'm hoping that there is some benefit to this pointless debate. By refusing to acknowledge any alternative evidence surrounding the issue you've meant that I and other posters have had to rehash it relentlessly.
Hopefully at least one struggling sleep deprived mum will read it and realise there is a wealth of evidence out there to show they can (if they want to) let their babies sleep beside them safely, and both get a decent nights sleep, just like nature intended.

I don't think my choice is superior.

I do absolutely know best for me and my family.

Engaging in debate on a forum isn't being defensive. It's just disappointing when those you're engaging with aren't capable of reason. That doesn't mean your choice to sleep your baby in a cot is wrong or that my choice to not do so is somehow better. It's no longer that that I try to reason with you about. It means that you doggedly refuse to acknowledge that other research exists on co-sleeping that isn't "made up by other posters." Instead, you continue to bleat that it is unsafe no matter what and to place the perfectly valid and reasonable, evidence-based assertions of those choosing to co-sleep into a "deluded, made up, hysterical, defensive" category.

I completely agree with everything you've said.

Of course, ''it's natural'' and ''like nature'' is thrown in there to be superior.

Personally, I enjoy living in 2023 with formula, washing machines, dishwashers and many other things nature didn't make.

Spot on again.

@CatCake

I havent used the word deluded. And it wasn't me who first used hysteria. I do think bedshareres cone across as very defensive. I'm not sure why they are.

I dont agree that there is research that proves bed sharing can be safe, no.

I agree it can be safer than unplanned bedsharing or sofa sleeping.

And I think I'm done circling this drain

@SouthLondonMum22

I'll take my unnatural health care any day of the week thanks!

If the way another parent chooses to parent thier offspring makes me feel inferior, I'd probably have a look into why. I'm confident in my parenting, so another mum doing things differently has no effect on me or my kids lives and definitely doesn't make me feel bad. We all parent differently. There's no one way of doing it correctly. As long as you get them to adulthood in semi reasonable condition and they still want something to do with you, congrats, you did good 👍 Treat yourself to the kindness you'd show your kids if they came to you as adults and said this.

@botw1 the very fact you think they come across as defensive belies your belief that their position requires defending. It doesn't. Bedsharers aren't defensive. You believe this because you believe that your position is correct and that any other position requires a defence, so any engaging in debate with you makes you automatically decide that said engagement is a "defence."

Whether or not you believe there is research / guidance showing that co-sleeping can be safe is entirely up to you. Such research-based guidance does exist but it's an absolutely fine choice to say that, even if it exists, it's not sufficient for you to make any other choice than to cot sleep your child. It's not fine to instead claim that this research/guidance doesn't exist, that it's "made up" by "defensive, risk-denying posters." Not one advocate of co-sleeping here as denied that there are risks involved in co-sleeping. They've simply pointed out - correctly, whether you like it or not - that there are ways to address those risks that make them statistically marginal. That is still too much risk for you and that's fine but to tell everyone else that it's categorically unsafe is just wrong.

As other posters have said, I hope a desperate mum looking for advice reads through and sees that there are choices where baby sleep is concerned and that a decision to co-sleep is not simply an unsafe option.

It doesn't matter what you think. The evidence is out there. Bedsharers are defensive because everyone tells them it's going to kill their baby. There's a 1 in 16000 chance of baby dying by bedsharing. 1 in 32000 chance dying in a cot. The highest risk for sids is having a baby in another room and formula feeding. That's the evidence.

Risk of dying in a car crash in a year 1 in 20000, lifetime risk 1 in 240. So you better get your car scrapped and never drive again and forge a campaign against car drivers because they are putting their babies at a higher risk than cot death.

Facts are facts

It's the interpretation of facts that matters, 'Give me you data, tell me what you want to prove and I'll prove it!'

This thread and it's reliance on 'facts', 'research' etc is hilarious, a perfect example of the Use and Abuse of Statistics!

BTW, Harry Kane is not England's best goal scorer of all time, I have the 'facts' to prove it!

OP I've only read pages 1, 2 and 11, which all seem to be different topics in themselves, but your original post appears to be more about parenting styles rather than independence. For me, encouraging independence and losing out on babyhood would be weaning early or saying a baby can sit when really they're leaning, so to speak: a parent declaring they've met their goals ahead of time.

Either way here are some musings to accompany either school of thought: parent and baby groups can be just as toxic as they are supportive; quite often people who brag about how well it's going, are actually struggling; first time mum-itis; PND and "needing" the baby to grown up more quickly; if it works for you, it works; parenting is just making it up as you go along and hoping for the best. And so on.

For me, I had a very clingy and high needs first baby who I needed to stop being so dependent on me and I had PND. My second I'm not rushing anything because I'm enjoying him. My first I felt I needed to be on top of everything, my second I've given up and embraced the mess I've become 🤣 and am much, much happier.

If it works for you, it works. Just as if it it works for them, it works. Neither is right or wrong.

@Ottersmith

I've said a few times now people are free to ignore me and the evidence. If you dont think it matters what I think, that is absolutely fine.

I havent scrapped my car, despite the very clear risk, because I've made the risk assessment that the benefits outweigh the risk. I feel its a necessary risk to take.

Others feel the same about bed sharing. I dont. And I won't ever think it can be done safely (because you cant remove the risk of suffocation) but people who want to do it are completely free to disagree

@JudgeJ

I dont like football and I'm not English so you could tell me whatever you like about a random footballer I've never heard of

For gods sake. You're not going to traumatise your baby by putting them on the floor. They need floor time to develop properly, physically.

@00100001
"
Asia:
In many parts of Asia, such as China, Japan, and Korea, children may start potty training between 1 and 2 years of age.

Middle East and Africa
In some Middle Eastern and African countries, potty training may begin at an earlier age, sometimes as young as 6 months old.
"

Ask any non westerner, like me - the western way is not the only way.

And those 6 month olds are taking themselves to the toilet are they? Those 14m olds are having no accidents?

Or is it that they're being taken to the toilet by the adults?

In my mind, a toilet trained child is one that can take themselves to the toilet unprompted, and do the whole process independently with accidents only happening incredibly rarely such as illness etc. Not a baby that is being out on a potty every few hours/at some tiny signal by the adults around them .

Well opinions will differ (and culturally no less), but much rather do that for a few months instead of changing nappies...
Especially when I see people talking about changing nappies of 3 year olds!!!

Well...a few months for. 6.kntjsnokd to actually being independent would probably actually be over a year.

Most people's lifestyle doesn't work like that, like if kids are in nursery from 6 months old, I can't imagine it would work in that setting?

They're probably all independent at the same kid of age, just some are being taken to the toilet by adults whilst others are in nappies.

Yes, this. You read around to figure what's safe then you do what works best for you and your baby (often in a fug of sleep deprived confusion. It can also be different for different babies).

As long as the outcome is what works best for everyone then you are probably doing the right thing and can crack on and ignore others doing it differently.

Just don't e.g. co-sleep but spend all your time complaining about how tired you are and how difficult co-sleeping makes things for you.

I'm not sure exactly how it would work since I emigrated a long time ago - but for example my mother was a Dr, and her mat leave was 3 months long.
This was the practice then there then too in my country.

It wouldn't work.

My baby started nursery at 3 months and I wouldn't want to pay £100+ a day for them to stare at him so they can catch his wees/poos.

@SouthLondonMum22 bur formula isn’t as healthy as breast milk is it,
you can’t pretend it is?

@MumApril1990 It isn't as healthy. I've never claimed that it is.

This was 9 months ago!!! I still cuddle my baby to sleep 💗

Why would you spend months watching your child and training them to wee on command interrupting their natural play? Do you not have anything else to do?

In less Western cultures babies are constantly carried the care giver learns to interpret the baby's signs. Yes by the time they can walk these children are to all intents and purposes toilet train. It's no so odd I am 47 and I was dry by 18m (Terry nappies), my sister by 15m and at night by 2.