To think the media over exaggerate trans women and refugees?

[SleepDreamThinkHuge]

I have noticed in the media when trans women and refugees do crimes it is highlighted to such an extent compared to if say men commit rapes. When it is a trans women raping someone it leads to "women being unsafe" and the funny thing is a lot of people doing this faux outrage and pretending they care about women is from some men. It is strange when you hear things like "as a father or mother I worry for my child's safety they are not safe." Ok so what about when most sexual attacks are committed by cis men? You never heard them protest about that.

It is the same with refugees you only hear the bad stories "oh he is gaining the system" "oh a lot of these refugees are rapists." There is no middle ground in both of these issues. Rape/sexual assault gaining the system is done by a minority of all people (black, Asian, White etc..) But when it is refugees or trans men doing crime it is highlighted to such as extent to which other groups that do the same crime e.g. white Brits is less highlighted and outrage is not as much.

Oh. Ok. I will come back later and break it down for you into digestible bite sized chunks then. No worries.

Regarding your question, perhaps you can answer some of mine asked up thread first.

what do you think happens to those women and girls who are attacked and raped and seeking care when they also then cannot get access to female only care and support?

Why do you believe that feminists are not covering this?

where is your own campaign that we can give you some support on?

What is it that you hope to achieve with your focus? Stopping the intake of refugees? Laws changed? Which ones? What?

There is nothing to it except that a poster thinks that all feminists should be focused on this issue above others. Because they think it as “having the biggest material effect on women”. M

This poster reminds me of the time the schoolkids decided to leave school on a Friday lunchtime "for the environment". When asked to break down exactly what they hoped to achieve, they had no answer except "save the environment".

Rather than breaking down what their concerns are, looking at statistics, making a plan of action, they are merely repeating "refugee men are rapists" in different ways.

I think that they are coming across as angry because they want something (what?) done by someone (who?) to achieve the result they want (which is?). They appear to have been listening very intently to our esteemed home secretary, and has concerns as a result of what they have heard. Unfortunately as the government has no answer other than stop the boat people, those that are getting this message have no confidence in the government which leads to frustration and anger born of fear being misdirected towards refugees. I might be wrong, and it would be interesting for them to come back and engage in positive dialogue, which could mean ideas to make the situation better.

(This is me breaking my post into bite sized chunks that is not ‘word salad’)

Your post is hypocritical. You want us to rely on stats you have posted from Prey where the author has stated that statistics are unreliable. You declare that the UK government doesn’t publish the stats we have requested but have demanded multiple times that we should provide stats to justify our priorities.

You have not produced links to the statistics so we can verify those statistics unless I missed them. Did I miss those links?

Step

I also noted that you have not suggested once what feminists should be doing.

You have posted post after post about how this is the biggest issue. You said it was “having the biggest material effect on women”. Based on what? What makes it the “having the biggest material effect on women”? Your opinion at the moment is 'what'.

I am not denying it is a significant issue, but I do disagree with you that it is the biggest issue. And most importantly, I disagree that feminists are not doing something about it.

I find that a ludicrous suggestion and one that seems to show ignorance about the topic.

I would suggest that you ignore the many VAWAG feminist charities that are already working full time on general awareness, and specific campaigns about protecting all females from male violence. Including.... your issue with a group of immigrant males.

Whether it is by the group you wish to target or any male, the fight against VAWAG has universal support organisations and its own discussions happening every single day. It has vigils in my area monthly for instance. There is very clear and widespread support for these feminist organisations working to support these women and children. (The same cannot be said for gender issues, I will come back to that though)

The issue with VAWAG cannot necessarily be positively impacted immediately by law changes. Because the laws already exist. What changes would you recommend will increase the protection of women and children against that group you are saying is “having the biggest material effect on women”?

It could be said to improve general deterrents through dramatically improved prosecution. And there are whole feminist organisations set up and working towards reducing VAWAG, domestic abuse, rape and sexual assault.

So, again we come to. What are the specific outcomes you want?

Is it no refugees? Is that what you propose?

Is it setting up support within communities with high proportions of the specific group you discuss to enact change within? Well that has been and is continuing to be done! and sponsored by local governments too! And done by feminists!

Or is it just more discussion?

You think the answer to the issue you are talking about is more discussion?

step

I think literal is right. For all the time you have posted on the feminist boards, you don’t seem to have a grasp of the issue and you don’t seem to have understood why some women have prioritised it above other issues.

As I mentioned, one reason is because it is their own children being harmed.

It is something where something can be done by them, parents, directly. With their schools, with the care that they seek for their children, with their children’s sporting teams and clubs, and with organisations providing single sex spaces.

There are immediate gains to be made just by direct parental action in view of the lack of clear legislation.

Just as there are immediate gains to be made by direct action by any woman for those instances. Such as lesbians seeking to ensure that they have the right to meet without males having to be included. The Lesbian Project meeting was protested in London recently by people, supposedly other lesbians there too, trying to drown out their meeting. So, it is a very wide range of people being directly and negatively impacted. Every day.

It is not just 'cultural' and 'legislative' changes that need to be made. Right now, parents and women are tackling this issue with letters, meetings etc with each organisation at local level to enact immediate change.

It is also something where almost immediate gains can be made through tightening legal language.

Hence feminists are very vocal and talking about this. Because once people read their words, once people listen they understand and even people who are not feminists actively campaigning can have a positive effect.

And immediate action through preventing poor law being made.

As I said, it will take years to change a poorly made law back, how many additional women and children are acceptable collateral for not fighting those laws now?

Right now, discussion WILL make the changes that feminists want to prioritise sex where it is needed. And parents who are seeking negative impacts on their children will have discussions to prevent those negative impacts.

So, yes. There is a lot of discussion happening despite the horrific attempts to silence feminist voices and to redirect feminist voices by some people who think they should have that ability whether through shaming posts on an Internet forum or through actively shutting down meetings.

And lastly step

You have posted on the feminist board before, you must be fully aware how scarce the data YOU are demanding is, yet here you are demanding it. It seems only to be to shame others for not prioritising something that you also have not seemed to have done any campaigning about. Otherwise you would have answered the comments to that effect.

The work about gender is just part of the work that feminists are doing every day in the UK. You must know that. You post on the Sex and Gender board, a board hived off for that very issue. Yet you complain that Sex and Gender is the focus? Nothing new there. Many posters do it because they disagree with the topic being allowed at all on this forum.

You posted on this very thread how it was a "white" and "middle class" movement fighting gender, which is demonstrably wrong and it also doesn’t consider the harm done to women who are vocal about this topic. It is a propaganda tactic used by those who are heavily invested in changing laws and policies to suit themselves leaving women and children open to harm.

Yet you used it here on this thread.

No, and I'm not going digging for them. I trust that Ayaan Hirsi Ali didn't make them up in her book and had she done so it would've caused an almighty stink by now.

Besides, people don't ask for the sources on here because they genuinely want to read them. It's just another tactic to try and undermine the argument. If you post them they always get ignored anyway.

It is a generally white and privileged movement. Most women in the real world don't give a second thought to meeting transwomen in the toilets and for women suffering abuse it's not even on the radar.

I agree it still needs challenging but the real world impact has not been huge. I wouldn't even be aware of it were it not for mumsnet.

You really don’t spend much time actually reading then do you. otherwise you would know that we DO read the studies. We do analyse them and we take on board quality studies as they come out.

I think think you have shown that you are here under your own prejudice with that statement. Just like the ‘white’ and ‘middle class’ comments.

So, you read a book. You never once checked. Did you realise the author commented how unreliable the statistics were?

And based on that you have declared with NO other evidence that your issue is the MOST important issue facing women in the UK today?

You then demand statistics about trans people knowing that many attacks have now been recorded as ‘female’ attacks. So they are showing up as ‘female’ crimes.

How many additional women and children are you happy to consider acceptable collateral damage because you want feminists to focus on an issue of your choice rather than preventing the additional harm allowed from allowing males into single sex spaces. When a law change can make a lot of difference in allowing women to seek help to have male people removed from these spaces.

Let’s start with something easy, prisons?

Care to give us a number you are comfortable accepting of easily preventable rapes and sexual assaults before you will allow feminists to set their own priorities?

And who are you again? To make the judgement about being a white and privileged movement?

Seriously, how fucking offensive of you to make that judgement about posters on MN and this movement. It speaks volumes about you and the prejudices you hold.

OK, here's some statistics around what is almost certainly the biggest single instance of sexual assault in our lifetime.

Over 1,200 women were reportedly sexually assaulted during the 2015–16 public New Year's Eve's celebrations in Germany. Multiple women reported being raped. In many of the incidents, women in public places had been surrounded and assaulted by groups of men.

Statistics recorded by authorities indicated that out of the identified 153 suspects in Cologne who were convicted of sexual offenses and other crimes during New Year's Eve 2015–16, two-thirds were originally from Morocco or Algeria, 44% were asylum seekers, another 12% were likely to have been in Germany illegally, and 3% were underaged unaccompanied refugees.[21][22] By July 2016, the police stated that half of the 120 identified suspects of sexual offences on New Year's Eve had arrived in Germany during the year 2015,[1][10] most of those 120 had come from North Africa,[1] and four suspects nationwide had been convicted.[23] By November 2016, around 200 suspects of the sexual assaults[1] had been identified nationwide.

The Cologne police chief suggested that the perpetrators had come from countries where such sexual assaults by groups of men are common.[19] That suggestion was confirmed in a Federal Criminal Police report in June 2016, which also identified five more factors contributing to the occurrence of the attacks: group pressure, absence of police intervention, frustrations of migrants, disinhibition caused by alcohol and/or drug use, and disinhibition due to lack of social ties with German society.[20]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_New_Year%27s_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany

Again, what is the outcome you seek here.

At the moment you are engaging in pure whataboutery because you cannot articulate what you want to happen.

You are using this event as almost a weapon. are you about to say ‘if you feminists don’t do something (and you haven’t said WHAT) and continue to focus on this other issue, you are responsible?

The fact you cannot engage in the wider discussion about the issue and even state what you think feminists are NOT doing about it nor what you want feminists to do, and the fact you hypocritally seem to have done fuck all yourself, says all we need to know.

Sure, you have stats on an event in Germany. What do you honestly expect UK feminists do here?

You have been directly asked repeatedly what specific outcome you want and you can say nothing. Not a fucking thing.

YABU. The media downplays or even stays silent about serious incidents involving those "marginalized" groups.

So an event 8 years ago in Germany is the burning issue women in the UK need to be concerned about today?

Oops sorry hell I meant to quote this post not yours

I really don't get it

1. we don't have the same demographics as Germany- far fewer migrants from these countries
2. there was a suggestion this was an organised terror event at the time, not a random spontaneous outbreak of sexual assault. Loads of counter terrorist action has been taken ISIS is considerably weaker now than it was then
3. we haven't seen anything similar to this in the subsequent 8 years.

I'll stick to worrying about how rape is effectively decriminalised in the UK thanks

I'll stick to worrying about how rape is effectively decriminalised in the UK thanks

That kinda goes togeter

Actually @Helleofabore, I think that poster may have said what they want to achieve - they want TW to be able to do exactly what they want because they think that women being forced to pretend that TW are actual women is not the patriarchy in action and is something we should ignore anyway because it's not directly lead to the mass rape of woman, as far as we know. The fact that it supports the trampling of women's boundaries and the treating of women like service humans - thereby very much being an enabling force to all male aggression - does not seem to be something they believe? care about?

"OK, here's some statistics around what is almost certainly the biggest single instance of sexual assault in our lifetime."

This is what fuckwittery looks like:

Poster A: Over here, this is what feminists should be fighting for, otherwise they are all just 'fiddling while Rome burns with all this trans stuff'. God forbid we see a man using a ladies toilet right.... ("Here" being rapes and sexual assaults by immigrant male and it is serious 'stuff')

Posters: But women and feminists can focus on more than one issue at a time. Feminists are working on this as well, but also under the general rape and sexual assault support.

Poster A: It doesn't seem that you are working on these issues, MN seems to only be focused on one thing and the whole trans thing seems so white and middle class to me.

Posters: Well, you do post on a specific board labelled 'sex and gender' that was split off the general feminist board. But you are very wrong to say this is mainly a 'white' and 'middle class' issue - here are some notable women who don't really fit that description here in the UK.

Poster A: But I feel that you are focused onto legislation and on-line stuff and away from real life.

Posters: Here are some reasons why legalisation is being focused on. Here are some more feminists who are not white or middle class.

Poster A: If you could just produced some stats that prove you are working on the 'right' issue according to me.

Posters: Where are your stats? By the way, what do you think will happen to those women and girls in the UK who have been raped and sexually assaulted who then have to face males in their single sex spaces, including their rape shelters and rape support services? How you think that works?

Poster A: Where are your stats? I am here voicing my opinion!

Posters: Yes, you are allowed to have your opinion, but why do you seem determined to shame feminists for not focussing on your specific issue. Do you have UK stats to back this up ?

Poster A: You are naive to think there are UK stats for this. I posted stats from a book I read, where are your concrete stats. You should have concrete stats (knowing that of course there isn't and that rapes and sex crimes by males with trans identities have been recorded as female crimes and not separated out)

Posters: This is a wide ranging multi aspect issue and rapes and sexual assaults are just one aspect. There are many other aspects such as x, y and z.

Poster A: The issue I am talking about is "having the biggest material effect on women”.

Posters: Really? Can you provide stats to show this? And what is your outcome here, what do you feel feminists should do?

Poster A: Where are your stats? I have asked and you have nothing.

Posters: well... neither have you. By the way, what are you personally doing to assist in campaigning for your issue, maybe we can help. But also, do you know the impact to so many women just by them having to exclude from society because they won't use toilets that males' access?

Poster A: X women assaulted in one night is a bigger problem than worrying about the minuscule chance of seeing a bloke in the toilets.

Posters: Feminists have set up specific organisations for VAWAG, have you somehow missed seeing these. There are groups at local level dealing directly with the issues faced in the areas with high immigration by local people with greater understanding of the cultural needs of that group.

Poster A: Do you think that more European women have been sexually assaulted/raped by immigrants or as a result of the whole trans/self ID situation? I have posted my stats that I got from the book I read!

Posters: The needs of women and children around the discussion of their sex based rights is much wider than sexual assault and rape, we have mentioned this. By the way, have you searched for the original source of those stats to check them and so we can check them.

Poster A: I trust the book I read, these are the stats, where are your stats. Beside you won't read them anyway. This is such a white and privileged movement and the issues only exist on Mumsnet

or some other fucked up fuckwittery.

Anyone can go back and check, but I have done this based on this poster's posts.

I think it is pretty clear that there is no intention to actually engage. It is also pretty clear they have used some easy to spot tactics of minimisation through limiting the frame of the issues faced with the deprioritisation of sex where sex does matter. That limiting has been attempted through focus only on rape and sexual assault.

And this poster doesn't actually seem to be doing a thing about the issue they have told us that we should be focused on. Instead, they have simply just tried to keep the focus on the horrific events where 1200 sexual assaults/rapes occurred in Germany.

This limiting of the framing is directly dismissing the impact on children, women's employment, women's health, women's rape support, prisons and other single sex spaces and a huge range of every day issues impacted. All dismissed because in this poster's mind, it doesn't deserve the attention unless it is rape and sexual assault. Or, that is the only impression I have now formed over these last pages.

They have also continued to double down on their falsehood that this is a 'middle class' and 'white' issue. That one actually comes straight from extreme trans activists who wish to shame the women discussing this issue. It is false and is clearly false once you even lightly scratch the surface.

But even here on page 16, white and middle class trope has been pushed. It is remarkable. I believe I even saw this poster post on a thread where NZ women were assaulted and an activist had to be escorted out of the crowd so this poster if they had even taken notice of the Maori women discussing this issue over twitter etc, would have realised this is not just 'white' and it is not just 'middle classed / privileged'.

StepAwayFromTheBiscuitJar, if you are here to engage productively, maybe you should start now. Otherwise, I think we can see that you are not here to engage productively, but to attempt to convince readers of falsehoods that are effectively fuckwittery.

Actually literal, I don't believe they even care about the issue that they are saying is "having the biggest material effect on women” because they seem to not be able to do anything except plonk down regurgitated stats from a book. There is nothing beyond the most superficial of the superficial at all.

I think that by now, those reading along will see this.

Jesus, are you trying to recreate the Great Wall of China in text? 😂

I've made my point clear several times. I believe the trans thing to be a genuine issue which needs addressing but I feel it's a lesser issue than the significant increase in sexual violence caused by large numbers of men from patriarchal/misogynistic cultures taking up residence in Europe.

This thread was poignant because it was about both trans and refugees and predictably the former has taken over with the latter being an afterthought.

You can write all the long waffly posts you want to try and distract from this but until thousands of women are being sexually assaulted by transwomen I'll continue to view it as a lower priority issue.

I see. So you view thousands of women as acceptable collateral damage for making/maintaining poor laws that would prevent those additional women being harmed.

Good to know.

there was a suggestion this was an organised terror event at the time, not a random spontaneous outbreak of sexual assault. Loads of counter terrorist action has been taken ISIS is considerably weaker now than it was then.

It would be a rather odd terrorist act considering it happens in their own countries. 'Taharrush gamea', roughly translating as 'the rape game'. If you'd read the thread you'd have seen me mentioning it.

We haven't seen anything similar to this in the subsequent 8 years.

Um, you might want to read the rest of the article. There have been loads of other examples of groups sexually abusing women at public events.

Yup, exactly what I said. 🙄