To think the media over exaggerate trans women and refugees?

[SleepDreamThinkHuge]

I have noticed in the media when trans women and refugees do crimes it is highlighted to such an extent compared to if say men commit rapes. When it is a trans women raping someone it leads to "women being unsafe" and the funny thing is a lot of people doing this faux outrage and pretending they care about women is from some men. It is strange when you hear things like "as a father or mother I worry for my child's safety they are not safe." Ok so what about when most sexual attacks are committed by cis men? You never heard them protest about that.

It is the same with refugees you only hear the bad stories "oh he is gaining the system" "oh a lot of these refugees are rapists." There is no middle ground in both of these issues. Rape/sexual assault gaining the system is done by a minority of all people (black, Asian, White etc..) But when it is refugees or trans men doing crime it is highlighted to such as extent to which other groups that do the same crime e.g. white Brits is less highlighted and outrage is not as much.

Actually, I think we have now, with the concession that all three of the issues raised in one link, established that the links provided are not reliable. This is due to the definition of discrimination, hate and harassment. Having looked at both, they use similar examples etc so I do say both links. I am sure they could be useful for directing further independent research so that solutions can be found.

Please don’t try to defend me hat, it seems to bring accusations directed at you. I appreciate your words and those of others though. Thank you.

I'm not really trying to defend you as such, you are clearly more than capable of doing that yourself, I just find Hoovers posting style jarring and I can't help myself but point out that they are just being hostile and not engaging in good faith.

I probably am being a self righteous tone policing twat, but I can live with that.

Although, I'd much rather have just read an interesting discussion where the other side went "oh right, I hadn't noticed the data collection method was such a total dud making the research useless. Wouldn't it be good if we could collect proper data and get some real figures" and then it continue from there.

I'm sure there are trans people who are discriminated against unfairly (the not single sex positions etc bit), I don't want that and I would be very interested in proper research and data collection done on this because then we could at least have some starting point to go from on how to counter it.

That's my not a well educated person take on it anyway.

Also sorry for wading in, in general but also because I didn't have much to contribute.

That is a common misconception. First of all no-one is born in the wrong body and hardly any transwomen take hormones and even fewer undergo surgery, hence the ability to rape).

I've said this before and it never goes down well but I still feel like there's an element of fiddling while Rome burns with all this trans stuff.

I really do understand the threat of allowing women's rights to be undermined but it seems to get prioritised over much more impactful issues IMHO.

For instance, the other half of the OP concerning immigration has pretty much been an afterthought in this thread but it's actually provably been a bigger problem for women. Almost 70% of asylum seekers in the past decade have been male (80% under 35yo) and they seem to be bringing worryingly misogynistic and patriarchal trends with them.

Obviously plenty are decent individuals escaping horrific circumstances but you can't ignore the fact that sexual crimes have risen in every European country for which the the data is available. The UK and Denmark have seen particularly big increases, with it doubling in the latter.

If we look at the figures from 2017, France saw a 17% increase in rape and a 20% increase in sexual assault. In the same year Germany saw a 41% rise in sexual coercion. 12% in Denmark after it being relatively stable for years. And of course 1200 sexual assaults in Germany on one night - NYE 2016.

In Denmark 'non western immigrants' make up 13% of the population but commit 1/3 of all groping offences. In Germany asylum seekers constitute around 1% of the population but commit 16.3% of 'grievous sex crimes' including rape and 12% of all sex crimes. The higher the level of Muslim immigration in a given country the sharper the rise in sex crimes broadly speaking.

What's odd is that it's considered racist to state these facts which seems to me all too close to the accusations of 'transphobia' directed against those that state other facts like the fact that humans can't change sex.

It's not about race or ethnicity because Islam isn't a race. It's about patriarchal culture and misogynistic practices like 'taharrush gamea' (the rape game) which involves large groups of men surrounding lone women, stripping them, and collectively raping them with hands and objects etc. Like happened to the reporter Lara Logan in Egypt and was attempted more recently in Germany on NYE with the 1200 sexual assaults.

When a UN survey of more than four thousand men in Morocco, Egypt, Palestinian areas, and Lebanon finds that around two-thirds of them admit to sexually harassing women in public then it's hardly surprising that these things happen when they take up residence here.

But God forbid we see a man using the ladies toilets, right....

All the figures I've quoted above are from Ayaan Hirsi Ali's book Prey. I did also have a fair few other studies amongst the many links on my old phone but it died after I dropped a dumbbell on it.

She's a Muslim woman who fled a forced marriage after enduring FGM and now speaks out on the dangers of patriarchal Islamic culture. However, she largely gets ignored by the common type of feminist as she's very outspoken that western feminists have lost their focus and become obsessed with identity politics etc.

In the last thread on here one of the first replies was calling her 'a right wing sycophant' which was a bit ironic given that in the linked excerpt she'd specifically mentioned the dangers of people being pushed into the hands of the far right if nobody else speaks out on these issues. I feel like this is genuinely one of the blind spots in white feminism, which let's face it is the loudest voice.

yes this is true the media for sure has an agenda as far as refugees anyway.

I pointed this out to my slightly prejudiced friend who reads the daily mail and used to always send me articles about Pakistani or refugee men who had committed crimes.

She actually reflected on what I’d said and told me I made a good point.

I wish more adults were skilled in spotting bias and critical analysis.

Not all trans women demand this.
Thats like saying all refugees are criminals. Some may be. Absolutely not all of them.
I feel you are only proving ops point by making a blanket assumption about all trans women.

YABU.

I should have said the Trans Rights Activists, including Stonewall.
The loudest voices, and the ones getting listened to by big organisations are demanding access to women's single sex spaces, or getting the word women eroded from information (e.g. NHS).

@StepAwayFromTheBiscuitJar

I've said this before and it never goes down well but I still feel like there's an element of fiddling while Rome burns with all this trans stuff.

I really do understand the threat of allowing women's rights to be undermined but it seems to get prioritised over much more impactful issues IMHO.

I think you are part right and part wrong. I think people are able to concentrate on more than one issue at once.

It is a real shame that so much time and energy is having to go on protecting basic rights won by women decades ago, but that is the situation we have found ourselves in due to organisations listening to the likes of Stonewall and often until recently downright refusing to listen to the voices of women.

It is a bit like having your house on fire in multiple areas whilst simultaneously someone is round the back with a bulldozer undermining the foundations.
In your example, if you think of the immigration of men with different values as the fires, yes of course you want to tackle that. However if you only tackle the fires then you may find they are out but the whole house has fallen down (removal of sex based rights). Similarly if you just deal with the bulldozers then a lot of the house burns down.

It isn't either, or, it needs to be both.

You see an inbalance on MN, because MN is one of the few places that has been 'brave' enough during cancel culture to host discussions around the erosion of women's sex based rights and removal of safeguarding to minors on this issue.

Refugees are a different far more complicated story. But it's enraging to discover that men are committing criminal acts in this country who should not actually be here.

Once someone has refugee status, they have the right to remain in the UK.

I don't see these issues as as separate as you do. Men being allowed to use women's toilets, indeed women being verbally attacked when they object is the the patriarchy and is misogyny. We can't ignore those problems in amongst other problems related to it. It's the foundation of respect and protection being eroded with a very clever marketing ploy which suggests that the anti women's stance is the progressive one. We can't create a society which suggests women whilst pretending that TWAW.

That is a perfect analogy, @TeenDivided.

The presence of refugees in the UK is already well covered by existing laws. Feminists are now fighting to ensure the laws that are in place do the job that was intended, to protect female people of all ages and of all identities (but female not male). Those laws are being changed either in wording or in interpretation.

Of course, once a law is changed, it is very hard to change back and a great deal of harm is done in the meantime.

And yes, women are able to multi task and campaign on multiple fronts. And we do.

However, people most often forget that many of us are in this fight as parents of vulnerable teens and children.

It is not just about safety from abuse and rape. It is not just about the next generation of women losing their sporting opportunities. It is not just about them losing their employment opportunities and achievements being celebrated because a male who has not been discriminated against since birth and has been encouraged by society (and this includes peers) to do their best, to enter competitions, to apply for that job, to ask for that promotion. It is not just about the next generation having single sex spaces they can discuss their needs in dignity and safety.

It is about them understanding that they can be whatever they want to be, that their sex cannot change. The important part to remember is that as a male or female person you are not restricted in your choices except for decisions relating to your sexed body type. Meaning women can be in any job, have any interest, dress any way etc and vice versa.

There are many groups of males who seek to harm women and girls. I attended a very inspiring Women’s Day event where I can report that there are grassroots feminist groups active in areas of high refugee populations. They are there and working every single day where support is needed. They are so inspiring.

Should they be promoted so others will know it is happening, maybe. Not if that causes them to be targeted. They are so needed.

How does this work though if on one hand they are providing ground roots support for women and girls from one group of male people and then on the other hand the laws then allow harm by another group of male people?

So, while I understand your point StepAwayFromTheBiscuitJar, I disagree that attention is not being given by feminists to the incredibly serious issues you mention. Of course, stopping refugee intake is not the answer at all either.

However, what do you suggest? Should feminists allow poor law and policy to be passed so we can pay more attention to your points, with the hope that we can change it back ?

And by the way, we very often see derision about the ‘sex and gender board’ being single focus, and people forget that there is a whole other feminist board because enough posters complained to have the topic split off. But feminism happens all over this site. It happens in the great support and advice given for instance.

The work to prioritise the sex based rights and protections of all female people is important because of the wide ranging nature of the impacts. But it is pro-women and children. It is not ‘anti-trans’, it should not be misrepresented that way, despite the way some media and social media position the movement.

If prioritising women and children is ‘anti-trans’ doesn’t that confirm the extreme demands of some trans rights activists are ‘anti-women and children’?

This.

Especially the last sentence.

It is not ‘anti-trans’, it should not be misrepresented that way, despite the way some media and social media position the movement.

Adding to that, feminism includes trans people who are female in the fight. Whether they are part of the movement or not , whether they like it or not. Their interests as people with a body that is female, was born and will remain female, are covered.

Ive just read the last few pages of this thread and baffled at how a person who has made personal attacks @Helleofabore , the sub - gcse level comprehension one was shocking tbh has flounced off the thread accusing the people they attacked of being self righteous and condescending!

Anyway to address the stats that the same poster raised about employment discrimination I'd really be interested to have more information about this. I suspect there is more going on here because the PC of gender identity should mean that these employers can be taken to task in the employment tribunals, I'm just not seeing these cases coming through.

Also the one 1 -8 trans people suffer physical attack in the workplace is particularly appalling, If this is happening because of the 'protected characteristic' this would attract large tribunal awards. I'm surprised I've not heard more about these cases from TRAs or that the Good Law Project has not taken such cases on or there haven't been crowd funders.

I can't speak for all people who are Gender Critical but I'd be surprised if many women who don't want men in our spaces would be happy that young people are being hurt or overtly discriminated against in that way.

So please can someone provide more information about this because whilst i don't want men who identify as women in sport or in places reserved for women I will 100% support young trans people in fairness in employment? Where did those stats come from ?

I'm a middle aged woman who is struggling to get a job post a period off for caring for disabled kids. I know what it's like to be overlooked in employment, I can't get an interview. Awful if young trans people are experiencing the same.

OK, I've read the replies and taken them on board.

I do agree that people can focus on multiple things. However, if I'm truly honest I still see the trans thing as being far and away the main focus of this place nowadays - granted, I know it's partly because this place is something of a GC hub. It's not what people say, it's the number of threads, the way it gets brought into any possible topic even if tangentially related, etc.

It's not that I want to see less trans talk, I'd just prefer we don't throw everything else out. And of course I can create whatever threads I want to discuss but I'm only one person.

The way I see it is that the whole trans thing is more of a threat, whilst the changing culture/mass integration of Islamic men is causing rapes and sexual assault on unforeseen levels right now. We ask 'how will women be safe from predatory men in their spaces if any man can legally enter?', which is a fair point, but what about the other demographic of predatory men which is already many times larger and increasing much faster? The one which has been responsible for more sexual assaults in one night than people like Isla Bryson have in their entirety?

I feel like if there'd been 1200 sexual assaults in one night with the perpetrators described as 'men dressed as women' then we'd hear a lot more about it than we did when they were described as 'north African/foreign' men. Pronouns at work, gender changing husbands, men in secure units in women's prisons. These aren't causing the same widespread levels of rape, fear, and sexual assault that are being perpetrated by men from patriarchal cultures.

Again, I know this won't go down well but the whole trans thing seems so white and middle class to me at times. So Twitter based and online. Clashes at Speakers Corner etc. It's not causing thousands of sexual assaults across a couple of years. And like law is difficult to change, there men are difficult to weed out once here. It's just odd to hear about the patriarchy and how men earn more etc, but see the same people turning a blind eye to grievous sexual crimes caused by the very same patriarchy they complain about in professional environments.

This is quite funny.
‘flounced off’! (= gone to bed)
In the context of ’why do you constantly respond as if you are being attacked’
And all of this on AIBU ffs
It is a truism that tone policing only materialises in support of a particular side of the argument and is seldom seen otherwise

So you are ignoring the rest of my post?

I am very interested in more information on the stats you posted.

You may have posted upthread but I can't easily see? Where did they come from?

Have there been any Employment Tribunals recently on this workplace discrimination? Particularly the violence?

Have there been any Employment Tribunals recently on this workplace discrimination? Particularly the violence?
Employment tribunals are only taken out when an employee has a strong enough case against an employer and the resources and will to see their claim through. They only hit msm headlines when they are newsworthy (often when the crime or the outcome is shocking’ ans they only hit legal journals when there is an interesting point of law or precedent set.

please tell me why you think this is a good indicator of whether the statistics are reliable?

not sure of the other….will have a look when I get a mo….not claiming to be an oracle on the matter just massively disappointed with general presumptions of inaccuracy just because it’s stonewall.

Btw someone getting assaulted by a customer or member of staff is not in itself enough to take out a claim under employment law against a company. There needs to be a prima facie case established of failure of duty of care or breach of health and safety regulations

"The way I see it is that the whole trans thing is more of a threat, whilst the changing culture/mass integration of Islamic men is causing rapes and sexual assault on unforeseen levels right now."

And the 'trans thing' is causing harm to women and children across multiple issues right now. As a parent, I see this every single day just on the issue around children and teens being harmed. So, while we can agree on some issues, it seems that you are only focused on one aspect of this.

As I asked upthread, what do you suggest here?

"Again, I know this won't go down well but the whole trans thing seems so white and middle class to me at times."

And yet you seem to be missing some of the bravest voices such as Allison Bailey, Keira Bell, Maya Forstater, Rachel Rosario Sanchez, Linda Belos, and a huge number of women who are not 'white'. And then there are the voices of all the working class women who are speaking up at the Let women speak events who are not on twitter, but are there attending these events and speaking up for themselves.

I would also suggest that it is hugely offensive to the many MNers who are not 'white and middle class'. You seem to have made that assumption yourself or have taken it from the prejudiced view points of extreme trans activists who use that phrase to diminish the importance of women's voices. Along with 'right wing', and 'far right wing' and even 'nazi'.

It is false. And it is demonstrably false when you start to look deeper into the topic.

And again, what do you suggest? How do you suggest women prioritise their time to make you feel comfortable?