AIBU to think that as a society we expect too much from mothers?

[NameChangeAsICouldBeOverReacting]

The 8 month sleep regression is hitting us hard, so I might be more sensitive than usual as I’m exhausted.

However, as I try and resettle my baby, I can’t help but question how women are expected to do it all. How are women expected to give 100% of themselves to motherhood, 100% in their careers, 100% to trying to maintain a social life/being a person outside of motherhood and 100% of themselves to help running the home. The maths doesn’t add up and I feel like along the way of empowering women, things have changed but to just expecting women to do more than what’s actually manageable.

I think the first issue is the length of maternity leave and how long it’s financially supported (plus the ridiculously little amount maternity pay actually is).
Why can women take up to 12 months off, but only paid for 9 months? One of my arguments for a longer, financially supported maternity leave is that our babies need to get their main source of nutrition from milk for the first 12 months, so why doesn’t society support women being off for that long? There’s probably more arguments in the emotional support of babies being raised by their parents, instead of childcare, but too tired to look into this.
Luckily, we saved enough before having our baby to support me being off for 12 months, but baby needs me right now at 8 months and I can’t imagine putting them into childcare at 9 months, or even earlier.

The other issue I’m struggling to wrap my head around is how I’m expected to go back to work and give 100% whilst trying to be a mother. Parenting is exhausting, relentless and I can’t picture my life where I’m meant to give my all to work whilst trying to give my best to my child. Surely something will have to give, but with the cost of living my career can’t slip as we need me working, so naturally it’s seeing less of my child by working full time and having them be raised and looked after by nursery.

So, AIBU to think that as a society we expect too much from mothers? Surely there’s a better compromise than the current set up of maternity leave and more support from employers towards parents?

Childcare doesn’t raise children, any more than school does. Parents raise children. A key part of raising children is paying for them

Society isn’t expecting more
than it’s always expected from
working class women, who have always worked. The idea of staying at home is a couple of centuries old; it was invented alongside the concept of the middle class and was always entirely about the status of men.

If you compare with the US, we look ok. If you compare with most European countries, our leave isn't great, especially with those Nordic countries like Finland, Norway, even Eastern European countries like Bulgaria plus the pay is 80-90% of salary so staying off is feasible (unlike maternity allowance here).

Basically what I see day after day on mumsnet is exhausted overwhelmed mums possibly taking anti-depressants and feeling completely wrung out by the demands of commuting, f/t work, small kids, lack of family close by, older parents to care for and so on. This is the world of two parents full-time working for one mortgage instead of having a mortgage off one wage as my parents had in the 70's and 80's. Some throw money at it like having a cleaner. Some cut down their hours, nearly always the woman, affecting her pension and long-term career prospects. Some just quit. Some keep going and take the tablets. A few say they like it, and I believe them but for most, it's arduous which is a shame.

The general malaise and unhappiness in the population suggests something's going wrong with this model, and the happier countries of the world tend to have longer maternity or don't require two parents constantly working.

@NameChangeAsICouldBeOverReacting (for example sleep training, wasn’t a thing years ago when you had more SAHM).

You’re just making random claims and stating them as fact though. Arguably sleep training was more of a thing in the 80s and even earlier when leaving a baby down by themselves, feeding on a schedule etc were all much know common place.

You blaming “society” but it’s your own expectations. You are the one who thinks your husband’s big man job is more important and he can’t miss sleep atm. No doubt that thinking will carry on when you are at work. But you can’t blame society for your own relationship dynamic.

but we shouldn’t just be expecting mums to be exhausted and get on with it because that’s just how it is.
Are you actually reading any of the replies? Because that’s pretty much the exact opposite of what anyone is telling you.

Well this is the life we were told was better for us. But we don’t have it all we just do it all. A trick played on us by men frankly and we fell for it.

As for maternity leave the U.K. is very generous compared to most other countries.

And honestly, why are you only now thinking about this?
It hasn’t been a secret in years/decades how things are.
Why now demand more leave?
Why didn’t you think this before choosing to have a kid?

I really don’t get this attitude. So it’s unreasonable to want change? How do other (European) countries manage? Germany offers 12 months paid maternity leave after birth plus 6 before birth if I remember correctly, Sweden is similar. So it is possible.
All this “well, it’s always been this way/ USA is even worse/ you should have known better/ why did you chose to have a child?” is so depressing.

Maybe this is down to me taking on more load and I know people have said “well most teachers are women” and I think that’s not fair for them to be exhausted either. There’s some jobs you can definitely get away with being more tired with (I could nap on my lunch if I WFH if needed), but we shouldn’t just be expecting mums to be exhausted and get on with it because that’s just how it is.
But honestly, we just get on with it like any hands on parent. It's a fact of life when you choose to have children that you don't get the same amount of sleep.

As a teacher if you genuinely believe it's not possible for your husband to be a bit tired because his job is so important, he's taking you for a ride.

I can tell you that there's hands on parents in all lines of work who deal with the reality of having babies and young children, including teaching. The difference is that a bigger proportion of men seem to be able to convince their other halves that their big important man job means they need to have uninterrupted beauty sleep.

No idea what societal expectations you refer to, what you describe seem to be personal ones.

I think if I had to take a punt it would be to introduce better maternity pay so parents can take off longer if they wanted
Surely encouraging people to plan for children and not have them unless/until they could afford whatever maternity length they want would be best? Otherwise, where does this money come from?

childcare that doesn’t cost as much or more than a mortgage (£1,300 here and our mortgage is £1,100 but we can’t move away due to work
Surely encouraging people to plan for the cost of childcare if they wish/need to use it would be best? Surely it’s not a surprise to people. The only exception I can think of is multiples, if they are a genuine surprise. In that case I see an argument for high subsidy where you basically pay what you would have for one. Treatment where more than one embryo is transferred does not constitute a surprise, that’s a choice. Again, where would this money come from?

lower pension age so grandparents can help out (a lot of my friends all have the same issue as our parents are still working FT
This one’s a cracker. If my adult children planned badly and expected me to retire early so I could become a childminder instead, I’d think they had gone crackers. No thanks, I ‘retired’ from my job when the hours, physical effects became too much. Why would I want to give up my retirement age desk job to run around all day after a 3yo? Could have just kept the original job. Also not sure what ‘the issue’ is you refer too? Assuming obligatory childminding until school age and then before/after school and school holidays? Plus likely nights so parents can hit the town to ‘reconnect’.

longer paternity because 2 weeks is a joke
again, who pays for this? Generally all of this is just other colleagues covering, which people are always happy to do but there is a limit. Employing extra staff is rarely feasible or works as often there is no one to employ.

It’s really about personal choices and not having children until you are in the space to do so which is different for everyone, there is no standard. It’s not about expecting everyone else to fit around you.

I also debate that parenting is harder than work. Truthfully, I think I had a few of mine to score time off work which was way harder than any baby/child, and I say that as someone who has two with SN.

It’s also about expectation. We didn’t go off on jollies with friends, or date nights, with extremely infrequent family holidays. It was just a never ending grind, chore after chore but that’s okay if you accept that’s just what it is. I took 8 years out from friends and then rightly, some were not keen to reconnect whereas others gladly did so. Meanwhile I had colleagues for adult company at work and for some became genuine friends that have continued. It’s about recognising capacity and accepting things.

It hasn’t been a secret in years/decades how things are. Why now demand more leave?.

Because it’s in the child’s best interest. Because society has changed since decades ago. Because it’s quite possible to better things, look at other models like Scandinavia.

There is no way I’d be made feeling guilty staying at home with a sick child, even if it’s 15 times a year. No way my dh would not share half of the care. Or domestic chores for that matter. It takes time, but it can be done even in a traditional country like the UK. Many of you seem to want a change, now you need to demand it not just want it.

These threads are always full of people saying its ridiculous that both parents are expected to work or that 1 full time wage should be enough to support an entire family.

I just dont understand this thinking at all.

In a household of 2 adults, both should be working to support the family.

Reduced hours and flexible working, better paternity leave and childcare provision should also be standard

But not a whole family financed by 1 adult

lower pension age so grandparents can help out (a lot of my friends all have the same issue as our parents are still working FT

One more example, here gp’s who work can stay at home with sick gc instead of the parents, fully paid. My colleague is currently at home with one of her gc.

100% this. And it’s quite possible too.

Blaming society is lazy if you have problems with a partner blame the partner not 'society made them that way'

No one can give 100% to a full time job and 100% to being a full time parent, at the same time. (Yet look at any thread where SAHMs are mentioned and there are always women who turn up saying "well don't you think working women do all that too?" in an attempt to put the SAHMs down..) No one person can honestly do it all on their own. In my opinion @Botw1 has the right idea in saying both work and childcare should be shared equally, but, in reality, how many men are there who are willing to do that? How many employers are willing to let people work as flexibly as that? How many jobs where you can? Yes OP too much is expected of women.

It's appalling, but Mumsnet is very extremely right-wing and against people actually spending time bringing up children or being in families and communities, instead very pro capitalist.

Obviously a system where we expect mostly women to look after society's children in low paid jobs while parents go to work elsewhere is both sexist and divisive. Pretending having children is a "choice" rather than how humans, in fact all animals, exist, is disingenuous at best.

Sleep training has always been a thing, even if it wasn't really called that! I remember a friend's mum mentioning casually how she 'had to' put my friend in the garage as a baby because she just wouldn't sleep. There was no guilt or shame in it, simply a 'but you wouldn't sleep! Of course we had to, how else could the rest of the house sleep?' lol. The term 'cry it out' was first introduced in the late 1800s but of course parents throughout history have not always managed to respond to every cry from their child during the night. The upside of bedsharing and EBF can be that babies sleep a bit better attached to the breast all night, the downside of course being increased mortality from bedsharing deaths.

I think it's really tricky to know what's best when you're a new parent honestly. My biggest piece of advice to new parents is to look into evidence based parenting information, for example the books Expecting Better and Crib Sheet, so that you can make your own decisions based on the current research. Safe sleep, feeding, weaning, etc., as long as you know the research you can make your own decisions. A lot of online spaces/groups are just full of wild misinformation about so many different aspects of parenting and lots of shaming. I think mothers are expected to allow their baby to lead everything when that isn't always desirable, practical, or even possible. I know some toddlers still waking every hour in the night needing to be fed back to sleep for example, because they've only ever fallen asleep while being fed. Fine if that works for a family but not many people hope for that as an outcome!

@Whataretheyfeedingyou

The more it's asked for the more it's done

And, no. No one can be a 'full time' worker and a 'full time' parent

But I dont see why anyone needs to.

(And tbh I don't really see what sahps do that wps don't but thats a different story)

Because it so selfish, lazy and entitled, that’s why.

Had to go and have a child, and then whine how unfair it all is.
Like I said, nothing op complain about is new.

Change IS possible, but you gotta demand it BEFORE. If you do what society wants, in this case, birth a child, why would anything change. When enough women are going to do it anyway.

The only real power women have is saying no.
Saying no until change is made. Iceland did that back in the day. It worked.

And about how other countries do it.
I live in said country, and that means fucking high taxes - on everything and they come up with more taxes all the time.
Many over there wouldn’t be so happy about it.
It also means that it can take a while to get a permanent job, so could get all those benefits.
Cost of living has always been crazy high, salary not so much, so many end up needing both parents full time working so they can pay bills and morgage.
Stay at home moms or parents are pretty much unkown concept here, I’ve never knew one parent who did that when I was a kid (born in the 80’s) and don’t know anyone who is now or know anyone who knows someone who is.
That’s how unusual it is. It’s not a thing here.
I’ve gathered that it’s much more common over there, how many would like to make change like it is here?

From all my family and friends I know exactly two families who have grandparents nearby (and I mean nearby as in 1 1/2 hour drive). Everyone else lives far away as they moved for jobs after university/training/posted with army.

My mum and my PIL also have health issues which means they aren't able to run after a toddler for a whole day.

Also, my mum rightly so told my sister who expected childcare, that she had raised her children without help and if my sister wants 3 children in 6 years than that's her choice. My mum loves her grandchildren and did happily jump in in emergencies but it's hardly fair to expect people to change their lives and dreams to provide childcare.

@Satsumastocking

What does working have to do with 'bringing up children or being in families and communities'

@Botw1 And, no. No one can be a 'full time' worker and a 'full time' parent

Thats not true. DH and I were both full time workers and full time parents. Often we literally tag teamed, one out the door, one in. Also had to allow for the fact my shifts generally ran over/went into doubles etc so factored that in with his. We worked opposite days and/or shifts to make it work. Yes, it was hard and yes, it was shit, and it often involved little to no sleep but we made it work between us without outside help apart from a carer for one disabled baby/toddler/child who was provided for a few hours each day for a period of time but only to provide direct care for that particular child, nothing else.

@HoppingPavlova

I said 'full time' because of course most parents are full time parents whether they work or not.

I mean no one says parents are part time parents to school age kids do they?

It's just a dig at working mums.

Wp may do a bit less physical parenting, meaning they aren't technically a full time parent but so what

I had no intention of ever being a full time patent anyway.

We did the same as you.

It is obviously just another choice, it’s possible if it’s something everyone is happy with. It’s there if you want it. If not you just stay at home yourself, also fully paid.

My friend's daughter and her husband both work 3 days to bring nursery costs down. Their second child has high needs and even with that working pattern they've had significant amounts of time off work recently. Her parents usually end up picking up the slack and they weren't utterly delighted when they announced her third pregnancy. They aren't without their own health conditions and already find childcare as grandparents difficult at times.

Yes. Mothers are expected to just 'get on with it'. When my ex-DH was mentally unwell I was expected to just carry on with everything. When I became mentally unwell (partly due to that experience) there was help from everywhere for my ex-DH. Even though I was still carrying most of the mental load and organising everything for the DC when I was sectioned in a psychiatric hospital. There was so much praise for the DC's dad for looking after them, none for me when I was doing it all plus looking after a very unwell husband and none for me when I was keeping so much going for the DC while in hospital. It was a very stark reminder that a mum is expected to get on with it at all times and a dad is a hero for doing anything to care for his own children.