AIBU to think that as a society we expect too much from mothers?

[NameChangeAsICouldBeOverReacting]

The 8 month sleep regression is hitting us hard, so I might be more sensitive than usual as I’m exhausted.

However, as I try and resettle my baby, I can’t help but question how women are expected to do it all. How are women expected to give 100% of themselves to motherhood, 100% in their careers, 100% to trying to maintain a social life/being a person outside of motherhood and 100% of themselves to help running the home. The maths doesn’t add up and I feel like along the way of empowering women, things have changed but to just expecting women to do more than what’s actually manageable.

I think the first issue is the length of maternity leave and how long it’s financially supported (plus the ridiculously little amount maternity pay actually is).
Why can women take up to 12 months off, but only paid for 9 months? One of my arguments for a longer, financially supported maternity leave is that our babies need to get their main source of nutrition from milk for the first 12 months, so why doesn’t society support women being off for that long? There’s probably more arguments in the emotional support of babies being raised by their parents, instead of childcare, but too tired to look into this.
Luckily, we saved enough before having our baby to support me being off for 12 months, but baby needs me right now at 8 months and I can’t imagine putting them into childcare at 9 months, or even earlier.

The other issue I’m struggling to wrap my head around is how I’m expected to go back to work and give 100% whilst trying to be a mother. Parenting is exhausting, relentless and I can’t picture my life where I’m meant to give my all to work whilst trying to give my best to my child. Surely something will have to give, but with the cost of living my career can’t slip as we need me working, so naturally it’s seeing less of my child by working full time and having them be raised and looked after by nursery.

So, AIBU to think that as a society we expect too much from mothers? Surely there’s a better compromise than the current set up of maternity leave and more support from employers towards parents?

and if that takes a financial hit so be it. If he is earning more don’t let that be the reason you do all the leave and days off. Otherwise all the ‘he’s’ will always earn more

This reaffirms that you just actually want more paid time off.

The reality is longer maternity leave with more pay at the expense of introducing a decent parental leave policy doesn’t benefit women in the long run. It does more to place the burden of children on women alone. It reaffirms the idea that men don’t need to get involved in the early years.

Eventually I think paid leave should extend to about 12 months, but I think paternity needs to reach at least 3 first.

On the milk thing, I don't think that's really a reason to mandate 12m mat leave. We are very fortunate nowadays to have access to formula which has the same longterm outcomes as breastmilk. And people who want to EBF for 12m can pump, many parents do and send milk to nursery with their kids.

But on the whole, YANBU. I often think about how evolutionarily speaking we're just not 'supposed' to parent this way, often in absolute isolation. We would normally live in small groups where there'd be other kids to run around with, other adults to watch our children, grandparents, aunties and uncles and other elders around to step in. I love being a parent so much but we don't have any family support so there is nobody to watch our kid if we're poorly or to go for a coffee or anything unless we pay for childcare, and it's surprisingly difficult at times. After twelve hours on my own with my toddler I do sometimes laugh to myself thinking yeah, this is pretty unnatural really in terms of the breadth of human history! Mothers and toddlers aren't really 'designed' to be together alone all day, no wonder you end up feeling stressed.

I think a big part of it is the social conditioning of mothers being the primary parent and fathers just helping out. I know so many mums who do it all at home and complain while the father does very little... and then they go on to have another child with him, and another. Then they're three kids deep with a crap father who thinks because they go to work all their time outside of work should be spent relaxing and resting. So many mothers seem to not realise it doesn't have to be that way. But you might have to hold out for someone who is going to parent properly, instead of just have kids with the guy you fell in love with and stuck with.

I feel very fortunate to live in this country tbh, mothers in the US after often at work until birth then back after six weeks. Every global parenting group I'm in has mothers asking how to cope when they drop their six week old off at nursery. It's a balance. On one hand parents and young kids are a valuable part of our society and there should be some support in place, but on the other hand when you choose to have kids it's kinda not on anybody else to step in and rescue you if you decided to do it in a less favourable financial position (obviously there should be safety nets for people whose circumstances change).

We don't realise how phenomenally fortunate we are to be able to have children, have maternity and birth care and postnatal care free at the point of use on the NHS, to have funded maternity leave, to have legal protections from discrimination of being a parent, to have access to contraception to choose when and if we birth children. To have access to benefits if you lose your job. We live in an absolute utopia compared to so many places.

I think it's really important to educate teens about finances honestly and the financial burden of running a home and raising a child. I work in a very poor area and so many young women of 18-22 happy tell me they're planning to get pregnant soon and can't wait, they have no understanding of the financial implications or how they'll cope, they just assume they will. It was a real shocker. I grew up in a poor area, council estate, but it was drummed into me through childhood that if I ever have children I have to make sure I'm in the best position possible because I owe it to them: pick a good father for them, be financially stable, with a secure job, and secure housing. Non-negotiable. So many problems come from young adults choosing to have kids before they've even sorted their own lives out and then live on hard mode trying to live while raising a child that requires so many resources.

Most teachers are women though.

The other issue I’m struggling to wrap my head around is how I’m expected to go back to work and give 100% whilst trying to be a mother. Parenting is exhausting, relentless and I can’t picture my life where I’m meant to give my all to work whilst trying to give my best to my child.

Well, when you're back at work during the hours you're working your child will be cared for elsewhere. So you can give 100%. If sleep is the issue, if you're exhausted due to a lack of it, sleep train now. Don't leave it later when it's much harder. It's very difficult to perform at work when you've had four hours of broken sleep each night, of course. But it doesn't have to be that way, and if your child isn't sleeping there's plenty you can do to help them learn to. DS didn't sleep longer than forty minutes at a time until we sleep trained at six months, then he pulled twelve hour stints out of the bag and is still sleeping 12-13hr straight as a toddler. No way could I do well at work if I was still exhausted but knowing I get a guaranteed brilliant night's sleep every night goes a long way!

Was just about to say this lol.

I don’t think society expects too much of mothers. All you are experiencing first hand is that being a parent is hard. It’s the toughest most exhausting time sink you will ever do your entire life. That is simply a fact of life- unless you outsource parenting and have a nanny and then off to boarding school from age 7.

If anything, society and employers support mothers more than they ever have in the raising of children.

I think much of what you feel is self-imposed with a dash of fuck this is hard work.

You’re not meant to be everything. Of course you can’t put 100% into everything, nobody can.

So you should be prioritising the most important, which is of course motherhood.

Haha. Best for the baby? No - Best for they employer and capitalism? Yes.
Lol at them thinking about the baby.

@NameChangeAsICouldBeOverReacting no shot Sherlock!

has this honestly never struck you before it actually impacted you?

I think if I had to take a punt it would be to introduce better maternity pay so parents can take off longer if they wanted

You don’t mean ‘parents’ in this instance though. You mean ‘mothers’. The rest of your post is explicit about this, because you don’t like shared parental leave and you mention paternity leave too. You want longer, better paid maternity leave. Your own desire to spend more time at home with the baby is what’s clouding your thinking on this.

Yep you're absolutely right. The maths doesn't add up.

People suggesting working mothers go part time which is often the case careers suffer. Fact. Look at pregnant then screwed statistics. Less in the pension pot less opportunities for promotion. If you work full time you're scorned for not 'nurturing' your children especially if you use paid childcare. Society expects us to have tea on the table and parent and work. It's hard!

My only answer is that baby father must also pull their weight. Days off for sickness. Cooking cleaning caring for children. All in partnership. It makes it just about manageable but it's still bloody tough

Exactly

Statistically the happiest mothers of young children are those that work part time. We are not high earners and organised our life so I didn't need to work full time. And I have never given 100% to work.

This is why some women are full of regrets.

@BitOutOfPractice please tell me how you can experience the true exhaustion and relentless of parenthood before becoming a parent?

Obviously I considered what life would be like once I would be going to work, but I don’t think you ever understand what having a baby is like without having a baby.

“How are women expected to give 100% of themselves to motherhood, 100% in their careers, 100% to trying to maintain a social life/being a person outside of motherhood and 100% of themselves to help running the home.”

This is just martyred nonsense though, not “society” forcing this on you.

No, you’re not expected to give 100% of yourself to a new mothering role. It’s perfectly socially acceptable to combine it with work (yes, you’re 100% still a mother, but you’re not putting 100% of your time into it). It’s also totally acceptable socially to get a babysitter or leave your baby with their father or other relatives to go out with friends. It’s also expected by “society” these days that fathers pull their weight. Not by all individuals and I’m not saying it happens -but generally, that is the societal expectation. As for “running a home” - if you want to see a reflection of the general view in society, then post on here that you can’t keep up with dusting because your baby song sleep, and society will tell you to fuck the fucking housework 🤷🏻‍♀️

These are your choices.

Does having a baby mean you have to compromise on time available to clean or party? Well yeah - no shit Sherlock! Babies are a choice. You don’t get a dog then acted surprised when you have to walk it and still do your food shop.

Society is not telling you to give 100% of you to each of motherhood, social life and running a house. That’s on you if you feel that. I certainly never did.

As for work… well, they’re paying you so yes, you should give 100% during that paid time. And that isn’t always easy. But how can you say society just expects that?
There’s maternity leave (much of it paid) with employment protection as well as money.
There’s the right to make flexible working requests.
It’s very common for returners to choose to work part time.
There is emergency parental leave.

Now I’m not saying that means every woman’s experience is perfect, there’s still a ridiculous amount of discrimination. But you can’t say that “society” demands 100% for work when society (in the form of what the state will champion and pay for) provides all those things.

Haha. Best for the baby? No - Best for they employer and capitalism? Yes.
Lol at them thinking about the baby.
Agreed. A country that cares so much about children they think the solution to the mass shooting of children is more guns and expects mothers to leave their newborn at a few weeks old isn't a country that cares about children at a policy level

But poor sleeping 8 month old babies are a PITA, so I’m not surprised you’re looking at the idea of going back to work and thinking Bloody hell, how? But you’ll get through it when it happens, honestly.

Men as a class need to step up. None of this refusing to get up in they night because they might be tired at work, none of this dumping the domestic load on their wives/partners, more men need to be doing their fair share of household jobs, their fair share of childcare, sharing parental leave, going part time.

As soon as more men have to start doing their fair share, things will start to change, but any progress will be at snail pace because as you can see from lots of MN threads, too many men think it's not their problem

This I think is borne out of women generally driving the wish to have children. I accept there are men who actively want to have kids but I think the reality is many are ambivalent about it. Love them when they arrive of course but see it more as the woman’s domain. It’s not right, they shouldn’t have kids just to indulge their partner’s desire but I think it’s what happens.

The older I get, the more I realise the inherent nature of men is unchangeable

I BF but it’s the only thing they can’t do, they can change the nappy and resettle. Be careful you don’t become subsumed by motherhood. Most of my friends and I all now have kids teens to early twenties. One let that happen to her and her partner was rubbish. The youngest is about to go off to University and she is a totally lost empty nester who said I don’t know who I am to me recently, it was incredibly sad.

Sounds like your partner isn’t pulling their weight. It’s either because he is crap or you just feel compelled to do it all.

It’s also expected by “society” these days that fathers pull their weight

No one ever asks fathers if they are planning to return to work full time after their baby arrives.

A minimal amount of fathers (I'd love to see actual stats on this) put their careers on hold/slow down when kids arrive as they need to do more on the home front.

How many men do you know who work part time so they can do childcare? As in actually part time. And how many women?

No one asks dads how they plan to cover childcare during school holidays. A vanishingly small number of men take annual leave while their wife works full time to cover the kids being off school.

Men aren't told to keep their hand in at work in case their wives leave them to parent alone.

Mumsnet is not a reflective cross section of society.

Yes, a lot is expected of women who are mothers and as we gain more equality and independence we access more opportunities. Taking all these opportunities means spreading ourselves thinner and thinner which takes its toll if we get no respite and have young children at home. We are also increasingly widespread, away from family support or parents are still working so cannot provide as much help. This will only continue to get harder. I think we will see a lot more childfree by choice women or one child families in the next few decades.

I don’t think women need more maternity I think men need more paternity / flexibility. It’s a cultural thing. My DH works for a small company. He is entitled to 7 weeks paternity leave (unpaid) but he said no men in his company had ever taken it including a colleague who had a baby a year before us and how there would be no one to cover work if a long period of time was taken off. I encouraged DH to bring this up with the owner. He ended up taking 8 weeks off when baby arrived - half annual leave, half paternity. Lo and behold the other colleague is now expecting a baby again and he told DH he plans to ask for the same time off a DH had. It took DH being brave enough (yes brave -culture in these companies around men taking time off is poor despite being permitted legally) to ask to change his colleagues views. I presume now any other men who are expecting babies will do same. This will help the mothers. DH next step is to ask for a 4 day week to help share the load when I go back to work. Again he is nervous but going to do it.

however these are men who step up and actually parent. More paternity is no good if fathers are how I sometimes see on mumsnet and think it’s time off to repaint the garden shed.

Spot on.