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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that the 'trans issue' isn't a big deal

242 replies

angiec89 · 16/04/2023 22:03

It just blows my mind how many people on here are so hung up over trans women. They're such a small percentage of the population. I have never seen an obviously trans woman in a women's toilet (not that it would particularly bother me if I did), in fact I very rarely see trans women out and about ever.
I'd be happy to listen to explanations but I really don't understand the issue. Surely there are thousands of more pressing issues regarding women's rights and safety currently than the 0.27% of the population (a USA statistic but I assume it's accurate enough) that are trans women. And even then it would be a minuscule proportion of those that are ill-intentioned towards women. It just seems like a big fuss about something so obscure when there are huge issues that deserve more attention.

OP posts:
Stellanotbud · 16/04/2023 23:49

daughtersanathlete · 16/04/2023 23:31

The thing is. I'm not even particularly gender critical. I would call a trans person by their preferred pronouns and name and I don't particularly have an issue with a trans person sharing toilet space with me.

Where the line is for me is in the fact that my daughter will be put in physical danger and will be unable to represent her country as she has done to date and purely on the grounds of her sex unless there's new rules applied. She also doesn't need to see male genitalia when changing. Thank goodness that change is starting to happen.

As a mother of three girls I completely agree with you. Ireland is a bit behind the UK still but the tide is definitely changing & the country is waking up.
As regards Trans, the absolutely exist but they need to start advocating for their own rights, trans prisons, trans toilets, trans changing rooms, trans sports teams etc or else use their biological sex for spaces & teams. They need to stop infringing on women's spaces & sports teams & go get their own.

literalviolence · 16/04/2023 23:49

Lulabelleblue · 16/04/2023 23:44

I think there is a place for discussing how trans rights will impact on women's rights, without accusing every trans person of being a pervert with a hidden agenda.

I'm not sure what the solutions are in terms of what the laws should be, but I think it's convenient to be transphobic if you can't figure out a solution that works for everyone.

People don't accused every trans person of being a prrvert with a hidden agenda. That's just more TRA propaganda.

nothingcomestonothing · 16/04/2023 23:54

I think there is a place for discussing how trans rights will impact on women's rights, without accusing every trans person of being a pervert with a hidden agenda.

I haven't seen anyone accuse all trans peole of being perverts. The problem is, how are we supposed to know who is 'genuine' trans and who is a pervert taking advantage ?

I'm not sure what the solutions are in terms of what the laws should be, but I think it's convenient to be transphobic if you can't figure out a solution that works for everyone.

Firstly, it's not women's job to 'figure out a solution that works for everyone'. We had one that worked for us until TRAs tried to take it from us, and we're not support humans here to make everything nice for everyone. Secondly, I and many other feminists would happily support trans people campaigning for third spaces, but trans right organisations reject that solution. Two transwomen Debbie Hayton and Fionne Orlander tried to get it off the ground, no interest from the trans rights organisations. Some TRAs don't want the toilets if there aren't women in them, it's not about the use of the room it's about the use of the women.

literalviolence · 16/04/2023 23:59

It's not about the use of the room, it's about the use of the women. Sums it up so well.

Satsumastocking · 17/04/2023 00:00

DojaPhat · 16/04/2023 23:13

The tories have pointed out that women don't have penises which is enough to win them the vote of some women on MN. As the first poster said, it's not possible to support women without knowing what one is. So I can assure you, now that the tories have been able to define a woman you'll never see a complaint from a single-mother using a foodbank while working shifts to keep a roof over her children's heads while she worries about the heating bill. Nor will you ever find a pregnant woman complain about lack of sufficient maternal care at her local hospital. The tories have got women covered so they get my vote. The past decade + of tory rule has demonstrated perfectly how supportive of women the tories are and this pesky 'trans' issue will soon be dealt with so the tories can continue to uplift women.

Yes. I'm one of those single mothers and even their claim to know what a woman is wouldn't persuade me the Tories actually care about women's welfare.

L1ttledrummergirl · 17/04/2023 00:13

This reply has been deleted

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jcyclops · 17/04/2023 00:21

OP gives a US statistic of 0.27% of population are trans women. Data from the 2021 (England and Wales) Census says 0.1% are trans women (and a further 0.1% are non-binary or "other").

OP postulates that this is so small as to be not worth making a big fuss about.

Some other figures that are very small:
0.001% of the population are murderers.
0.008% of the population will be killed or seriously injured on the roads.

I doubt any reasonable person would say it's not worth making a fuss about road safety or murderers.

Tinkerbyebye · 17/04/2023 00:37

Yabvvvu. You obviously don’t understand. Yes it’s a small proportion, however they are taking the place, unfairly, of women in sport, winning because they have been born men and gone through puberty. That’s unfair on the women they have usurped.

the same transgender sportsperson insist on using women’s changing spaces, get their penis out and women are supposed to accept that,

Men are saying they are transgender, and insist on being put in women’s prisons, where they then rape.

men can now just say they are a women and insist on being accepted as that and let into women only spaces. that’s not fair on women for any number of reasons, be it safety, religion or anything else

womens hard won rights are consistently being eroded by the transgender community, and whereas some transgender do care about that a large vocal element don’t.

unvillage · 17/04/2023 00:54

Love my trans friends both male and female and will always, always support them in any way I can. Including doing a wee in a cubicle next to them.

lemonchiffonpie · 17/04/2023 01:20

I didn't say all women were cis. Only the women born as women. It's a scientific description for women who aren't trans.

No it isn't. It's a trendy bit of doublespeak.

sst1234 · 17/04/2023 01:31

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Murdoch1949 · 17/04/2023 01:34

Once men get themselves and their dicks out of women's spaces and women's sports, then it won't be a big thing. At the moment genuine transwomen, happy to lead their lives quietly are being used by aggressive and violent men to batter women, physically and emotionally. If a man genuinely wants/needs to be a 'woman' why not start by shaving their beard, taking hormones & having genital surgery. Wearing a dress does not make a man a woman, Mr Izzard.

Emotionalstorm · 17/04/2023 01:37

Trans rights in the UK is what abortion rights is in the US. Come the next general election women will be voting on this single issue and labour once again will be confused as to why they didn't win.

echt · 17/04/2023 01:54

Obviously you wouldn't need to differentiate between cis and trans in every sentence about women. But in certain specific examples it's a useful word

Women = women
Transwomen = transwomen

Useful words that already exist.

HTH

Sphagnummoss · 17/04/2023 02:16

DappledOliveGroves · 16/04/2023 22:16

But this is the crux of the matter. At present, a "pervy" guy who was in the women's loos, changing rooms etc, could legitimately be challenged, whether by other women, or security, or the Police. If any man says he's a woman, and we have to accept this, then you lose any right to challenge any pervert in a female-only space. So the risk to women is multiplied significantly.

At the moment, there are no legal restrictions on men coming into women's toilets. Proposed changes to the law will actually protect women.

Under the Gender Recognition Act someone who can prove who they are with an identity document or gender recognition certificate has committed no offence. Anyone who does the same, claiming they are female but without grc, then they can be prosecuted for fraud.

At the same time, as a woman with quite a masculine physique, I don't want to be questioned about my genitals when using the toilet or getting changed.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 17/04/2023 05:40

I think there is a place for discussing how trans rights will impact on women's rights, without accusing every trans person of being a pervert with a hidden agenda.

As has been said, it's a (deliberate?) red herring to claim that anybody has said that ALL trans people are perverts. What is being gleefully ignored here is dignity: the fact that women do not want to be forced to be in vulnerable positions in front of male-bodied people.

In fact, most men also don't want to be changing or going to the toilet in front of women either - even though very few of them would actually be at risk from any invading women. It's a long-standing common-sense part of our human culture that we keep separate facilities for men and women in intimate settings.

The main issue is that there is already a clear immutable way of deciding which people are allowed to use which facilities, and it is one that the vast, vast majority of people have understood and been very happy with for a very long time indeed. It's irrelevant if somebody feels that they should 'qualify' to use a facility that is not appropriate for them, just because they feel that they should.

I could genuinely feel like I should be an accredited Gas Safe engineer - and identify as such - but it doesn't mean that I should be allowed anywhere near people's boilers. The difference there being that I could train and qualify to do that job, whereas it is clearly a biological impossibility to change sex - which everybody deep-down does know, but the 'gender' word is deliberately used to blur reality.

For those who don't understand, 'sex' is unchangeable biological fact - and the yardstick by which we decide who can access which toilets, changing rooms, sex-based sports, prisons and many more facilities. 'Gender' is how people feel, identify and choose to behave socially, which is absolutely fine for them to do, if they wish (although most people don't 'identify' into a 'gender' at all).

Therefore, just as we don't have separate facilities divided on other personal and social preferences, likes or dislikes - such as for people who like Coronation Street, for people whose favourite colour is green, for people who refuse to drive anything but a Mercedes, for people who use Instagram but not Twitter, for people who are vegetarian, for people who hate classical music, for people who tend to vote Lib Dem........... - we obviously also don't have separate facilities for men who may feel more comfortable dressing in traditionally feminine clothes (which nobody is stopping them from doing), but who are still nevertheless immutably men - for whom full appropriate facilities do already exist - meaning that they have no need and no right to force other (female) people to compromise their own safety, dignity and privacy by being forced to share their appropriate facilities.

Simply put, if everybody is given one cake each, it is patently not 'fair' to demand that somebody else should give you their cake, so that they have none and you have two - even if you somehow believe that you should have the special right to two cakes and thus that they should lose their right to any cake at all.

It's not the best analogy, but this is all a bit like these tiresome people who will happily wave away (other) people's rights to privacy in various spheres with the irritating Orwellian phrase "Nothing to hide, nothing to fear" - suggesting that personal privacy and dignity as a default should not be respected; and even go as far as suspecting and questioning the motives of those wanting their privacy, rather than ever questioning the motives of those openly wanting to invade that privacy.

mainsfed · 17/04/2023 06:05

angiec89 · 16/04/2023 22:34

That statistic was from a study in the US

I didn't say all women were cis. Only the women born as women. It's a scientific description for women who aren't trans.

It’s not a scientific term:

In English, the term cisgender was coined in 1994 in a Usenet newsgroup about transgender topics.[23] On that newsgroup, Dana Defosse, then a graduate student, sought a way to refer to non-transgender people that avoided marginalizing transgender people or implying that transgender people were an other.

Maggie178 · 17/04/2023 07:26

One of my work colleagues is trans. They are just trying to live their life and be happy like the rest of us. Just like the rest of us they need to use a bathroom.

nothingcomestonothing · 17/04/2023 07:38

Maggie178 · 17/04/2023 07:26

One of my work colleagues is trans. They are just trying to live their life and be happy like the rest of us. Just like the rest of us they need to use a bathroom.

And happily, one is available for them to use - the one for their sex.

Lockheart · 17/04/2023 08:58

literalviolence · 16/04/2023 23:49

People don't accused every trans person of being a prrvert with a hidden agenda. That's just more TRA propaganda.

Some posters have literally said that on this thread:

Yes you are right, there is a very low number of trans women. All the more ridiculous that women's rights are being trampled, laws changed and science rubbished, to validate the kink of a vanishingly small number of entitled men.

(See page 4).

onirgellep · 17/04/2023 09:12

mainsfed · 17/04/2023 06:05

It’s not a scientific term:

In English, the term cisgender was coined in 1994 in a Usenet newsgroup about transgender topics.[23] On that newsgroup, Dana Defosse, then a graduate student, sought a way to refer to non-transgender people that avoided marginalizing transgender people or implying that transgender people were an other.

That's interesting

Cis is used in some scientific disciplines mainly chemistry as a way of describing the normal/usual configuration of molecules/compounds

Not previously used in other biological sciences or social science

Samphiredragonfly · 17/04/2023 09:13

@Stellanotbud good old rishi 😂 utters a few words on the subject months before important elections and everyone believes him...

Stellanotbud · 17/04/2023 09:27

@Samphiredragonfly I do feel though that Rishi as a father of little girls he will be very invested in the future of girls.
In Ireland our leader Leo Varadkar & the Minister for Children Roderic O Gorman are both gay men & are very pro trans. We don't have a hope of the Gender Recognition Act being abolished while they're in office..

literalviolence · 17/04/2023 10:30

Lockheart · 17/04/2023 08:58

Some posters have literally said that on this thread:

Yes you are right, there is a very low number of trans women. All the more ridiculous that women's rights are being trampled, laws changed and science rubbished, to validate the kink of a vanishingly small number of entitled men.

(See page 4).

Which is not saying that they are all perverts or have a hidden agenda. So your point is????

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