To think that the Peter Brookes cartoon of Joe Biden in the Times is pretty offensive towards Irish people?

[Hedwigharlot]

The cartoon depicts him dressed as a leprechaun. It's like a depiction of Irish people from a Punch Magazine in the 19th century. Who thought it was appropriate? And why are the British media working themselves up into such a jealous frenzy over Biden coming to Ireland? Very poor behaviour.

Ok, wrong word, not 'interpretation', your presentation of the findings of research carried out but my point is 'youth' in my experience is not as concerned with differences, in fact that is why they are so profoundly shocked by racism, sexism, homophobia and general hostility based on prejudice.

Super peevish attitude, comes across as insecure, touchy and maybe a bit envious of Irish soft power and US investment in Ireland, particularly post-Brexit as well as the mess in NI being partly down to Tories getting into bed with the DUP in the last parliament.

Many US presidents have visited Ireland the year before re-election, not sure it helps with the American voters but can't hurt.

I'm not sure it helps with the vote either @whatchaos . After all the vast majority of Irish Americans live in states that always vote Democrat anyway? Although Biden himself is in a 'swingy' state.

You point about the passports tickled me. I bet the Brexiloons don't feel a bit cringe about applying for their Irish passports.

' Wad some Power the giftie gie us
Tae see oursells as ithers see us'

I’m sorry I didn’t mean to exclude people of Irish heritage in the uk
@Fimat really? Didn't you? Why didn't you notice us? Are you not aware of us? We are next door rather than three thousand miles away. Or are Irish American presidents more glamorous?

The whole thing is so pathetically needy. Like the UK thinking we have a special relationship with the US. No we don't. They will ditch us when they feel like it. What makes the Irish think they are any different?

Not sure what you mean - difference isn't always about prejudice.
My teenage nephews in London were certainly shocked by having potatoes thrown at them in school when they described themselves as Irish.

All politics works this way. Everybody rolls out the red carpet for state visits. And we try to nurture existing bonds where possible. No guarantees, but we'd hardly be slamming the door in the man's face!

Britain has done a lot of door slamming in recent years.

Politics is the art of the possible - you welcome opportunities as they come.

Well, there's a pretty long history of the USA being sympathetic to Ireland, eg in terms of likening American independence to the fight for Irish independence. Biden alluded to this in his speech about the American Declaration of Independence including: 'The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States.'

Exactly - and Ireland enjoys a lot of soft power in relation to the USA. St Patrick's Day is celebrated in the White House every year, and Irish politicians attend. For a small nation, it gives pretty enviable access to power. Biden has accepted an invitation from King Charles to visit the UK in the near future.

tbh, it's another reason why that Times cartoon and cries of Biden 'hating' Britain are so silly. It's not going to do British diplomacy any favours to be seen as immature and thoughtless.

America is multicultural with a lot of diversity among white Americans that perhaps isn't obvious to British people without a strong sense of immigrant America. Joe Biden went to Catholic school which means fee-paying in the US - but they were generally 'cheap' private schools run by religious orders, very different to the elite prep schools.

His children were christened and raised as Catholic, so it's something he has sought to pass on. US Catholics tended to sort themselves into parishes they felt more comfortable in, usually on ethnic/national lines and following patterns of migrant settlement. So for Biden to say 'Irish' is a shorthand for a particular American way of life which is basically religious, Catholic, urban - but a specific version of that, the Irish American version.

Someone said Biden is an English surname - my guess would be they were Protestant but in a mixed marriage the Catholicism got passed on. There weren't historically so many English Catholics migrating to the US. I could be wrong. It seems though that the Irish identity survived in his family more than the English. Other families did differently.

The fact people don't explicitly say 'British American' doesn't mean that Britishness/Englishness hasn't left a cultural legacy. And WASP was more salient as an identity earlier last century. Remember Larry David pretending to be a WASP in Curb to get into a country club - 'I'm a Moose. And an Elk'. The Mid-West has a strong Germany heritage, though people don't often define as German-American - the wars made a difference there. But American Christmas & a good deal of the classical music world has been influenced by German American cultural practice.

What counts - only linguistic or physical difference? Why should somebody on the internet get to say over the person themselves? What would you count as authentic? Biden is attached to Irish poetry and history, visits frequently, has built friendships and connections with extended family and takes a special interest in the region of one of his ancestors. Why not do this if you could?

There are times when it would be good not to recycle tropes, whatever the satire/intended meaning/valid criticism blah blah blah justification after the fact. A little bit of political stress and whooops, the political cartoons start to get a bit tropey. There have been too many examples over the past few years. I guess there might be a perception among some British that this is just punching up, because 'America'. But it isn't, and it reflects badly on British political culture.

What I don't understand is why people are still making excuses for this depiction of Biden and his Irishness. Many Irish people on this thread have said they find it offensive. Instead of many accepting that, it seems there are loads of people excusing the offence by telling us that Biden isn't Irish, we shouldn't be offended, they aren't offended, we are misunderstanding what the cartoon is really about etc.

Whether anyone in the UK of Irish origin feels as Irish as Biden is irrelevant. He feels a deep connection to Ireland, exemplified by his trip to Mayo. He visited a hospice that is named for his son Beau, where he himself turned the sod when it was being built. He met, by accident not design, the priest who gave Beau his last rites. He was at a church one of his distant grandfathers helped build. It seemed like yesterday was very personal to Biden for many reasons, all connected to his family and Ireland.

We can speculate forever if Irish Americans should claim to feel Irish and there will be views on both sides. However, can we all please agree that this cartoon should not have been published as it has offended many Irish people (on and off this thread). Irish people should not have to explain why we are offended. It should be accepted. Arguing against that is offensive in itself.

I agree the cartoon is offensive. I hope the people who are saying the Bidencartoon is racist stood in solidarity with Muslims who were offended by the cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed.

So if push comes to shove @whatchaos what side do you think the US is going to come down on? Ireland is not important. The UK is not important. US presidents can use us to indulge their fantasies but come election time they are going to go for American votes and they'd run a mile from the suggestion they were influenced by outsiders.

That's how it should be. I'd be horrified if I discovered Rishi Sunak was favouring India over British interests because of family ties. I don't think that, btw. I have no idea about his views on India because he doesn't make a thing of them.

Re your anecdote about your nephews being pelted with potatoes. Can you expand? That sounds awful. I have lived in England above cover as a person of Irish descent all my nearly 60-year-old life and no one has ever made a spud joke much less thrown one. I can tell you about other insults, mainly about being thick and tarmacking or buying fertiliser for explosives but never about potatoes. Like references to the Black and Tans it's bit old. Is this a revival your nephews have identified?

But in the conte

I would, yes. But that doesn't make this cartoon more or less offensive. People are entitled to find it offensive without being involved in other debates.

What I don't understand is why people are still making excuses for this depiction of Biden and his Irishness.

@Chulainn are they? I don't like the cartoon but Joe Biden isn't Irish, is he? If he was, he wouldn't be President of the USA, would he?

He could be president of the US with dual citizenship in fact. He's not an Irish citizen, though. He's a man with a strong Irish heritage.

What's your point? I don't get it. Depicting Irishness this way is offensive whether Biden or anyone else is Irish or not.

Oops, in the context of the Ireland conflict , the difference between the British and the Irish is not a good thing. Which part of London was that? That is unbelievably terrible! Tbf my DC just have an Irish surname they are not Irish, due to having a 16 year old and 12 year old, I am around teenagers quite a bit, I also do some work in a secondary school and we have not had Irish racism incidents. My eldest reads the news but that is a rarity amongst his peers, he certainly wouldn't know the significance of the potato. He asked my Dad about Ireland due to curiosity and whether he wants to study History A level and prior to my Dad's explanation he didn't know anything. My Dad was in The Hilton when the IRA bombed it so the conversation started from that point as a result of that tale.

He considers his Irish heritage as important to him. Nobody has any right to say he can't feel like that, whether they understand it or not, or whether it's how they'd feel or not. Irrespective of that, the cartoon is offensive, which is the point of this thread.

I'm always told how Britain has great soft power manifested in Queen Elizabeth II and now her son, Charles III. From where I'm sitting as a British subject I think the whole family are a bunch of freeloaders and it doesn't do me any good. Am I misguided? What soft power do you think Ireland enjoys that the US wouldn't pull in an instant if it suited them?

PP saying that no Americans call themselves English-Americans is sort of true, unless they actually come from England. After all, we fought a revolt against the colonizers, i.e., the English. In part, there is a warm feeling of alliance toward the Irish (about 10% of the US population has Irish ancestry) since they are considered underdogs in perpetual rebellion against the English. And there is religion; Catholic immigrants (Irish, Italian, Polish, French, Spanish, etc.) were not accepted by the WASPs and were considered lower-class, so the underdog feeling exists there, too. That cartoon is rude.

I don't know about the Queen - suspect she did add to Britain's soft power, and the Royal Family does, but it's up to British people whether they think that's worthwhile

You are right. America does not owe Ireland anything and should prioritise its own interests. Biden certainly will prioritise American interests. America knows that. There is no contradiction. If you look at Biden's speeches, they're partly about what makes Ireland a good place for American investment (and what doesn't). Irish soft power is a nice foundation for continuous cooperation, planning and investment. No guarantees. Very obviously worth continued attention as something beneficial to both countries. (Or we could say sorry, don't believe you, go and talk to Britain - no wait, Brexit - umm, France? Why would we do that?)

I think you are a bit confused. Nobody in Ireland is labouring under the misapprehension that we have a Special Relationship with the USA.

Stop projecting - as the yoof put it nowadays.

Wow…why so dramatic. I was talking generally about British Media. It’s been shown on here and obviously because of Brexit that the vast majority of English people have very knowledge of Irish history. If they really understood the complexities of NI then Brexit would not have happened. That was my point.
You’re taking my remarks extremely personally.
I’ve also had plenty of relations emigrate to the uk. Of course I know about the Irish diaspora there but I assumed wrongly that they’d know I wasn’t including them when I talk about British ignorance to the Black and Tans!