To think that the Peter Brookes cartoon of Joe Biden in the Times is pretty offensive towards Irish people?

[Hedwigharlot]

The cartoon depicts him dressed as a leprechaun. It's like a depiction of Irish people from a Punch Magazine in the 19th century. Who thought it was appropriate? And why are the British media working themselves up into such a jealous frenzy over Biden coming to Ireland? Very poor behaviour.

America would like a more secure Atlantic for sure.

Everything you’ve written here x1000000
Its just bizarre how offended people are.
I’m irish, my passport is Irish Joe Biden is American, his passport is American but he identifies as Irish American . So what???? That’s part of his family, their traditions and their stories that been handed down generation after generation. What’s the problem??

it just feels the problem is because it’s Ireland!
I’ve always seen the UK as a neighbour have many friends from there but something has shifted lately and this visit has highlighted it …

It's sad. The UK couldn't sort out its long-term economy and get ex-mining areas turned around, fund proper transport infrastructure, build some houses. It had decades after deindustrialisation to get sorted. But slid into Brexit instead, a coalition of thieves plus instant gratifiers wanting a sugar rush of saying no to free movement.

It's not looking well on it at the moment. Everything looks a bit decayed at the moment where I live - which is fine, the will of the people etc, entirely valid to choose to be poorer but have a sense of whatever it is.

But, there are implications for political stability in Ireland. Britain is often a good international citizen but it has some blind spots. A couple of years ago a colleague was spouting 'why should one small country be telling us what to do' online. I don't know, because there is a global community perhaps, and it's in Britain's interests to work well with its international partners.

Happy to explain - both my nephews won scholarships to an English public school, said they were Irish and then had potatoes thrown at them and nasty comments made in class about ireland

Ireland's relationship with America is partly down to long standing family ties, but also to Irish politicians, diplomats and business people working their socks off to build and maintain it.

Ireland is one of the top foreign direct investors in the USA - the country has a population of ca 5 million compared with the UK's 67 million, but our fdi in America is 50% of the UK's. Add in Germany, France and the rest of the EU and the UK is completely overshadowed. 'special relationship'? nah - 'those yanks love our monarch' really doesn't mean much.

Yes, and although Ireland is a neutral country American planes were allowed refuel in Shannon on their way to the war in Iraq (there were protests)

That's terrible. Clear racism and probably classism too. What did the school do about it? Has it been sorted out? Do your nephews still attend? Bullying is persistent and quite often schools want to brush it under the carpet for their image and also because they side with the bullies.

About my other comments. Like everyone, they can only ever be my own take on things. I have absolutely no ill will towards Ireland. I'm sure most Irish people realise as I do, that a weaker country can only ever be a very junior partner in their dealings with a stronger one and will be dropped at any moment.

The jibes about Brexit and Britain having no idea about Northern Ireland don't apply to me. I voted to Remain, and though not an expert, could see how having a land border with the EU coupled with that particular situation would be a problem. But they didn't ask me, did they? Having your government ride roughshod over you is a universal experience and we have to get on with it.

It's nice for Joe Biden to be able to talk about his Irish ancestry. And safe. Like Britain, Ireland is not a superpower. If he was of Chinese descent he might not make so much of it and make visits to the homeland of his forebears. Or if he did, it would be on a more formal basis.

Again, I don't blame Biden for this. We do what we can, which includes looking good to a home audience, or avoiding looking bad.

I can't remember who brought up the concept of soft power. I don't think it works. I believe it is a sop to keep us quiet about all sorts of abuses of power by more powerful people in our governments and others in a "you don't know what's doing on behind the scenes" kind of way.

In the specific context of Britain it's: "the Queen was really sad when we got rid of the Royal Yacht Britannia and of course it's okay for the Royal Family to squirrel away fabulous riches from foreign governments" kind of way. I entirely accept that it is a problem for the British people to solve and I don't think it the outcome will be what I want. That is my tragedy but this exists in other countries too in different ways. Or do you not agree?

I'd love to think the USA would elect a Chinese President, but given the carry-on about Obama, and that Biden is only the second Catholic ever, I don't think that's going to happen.

The relevance of Brexit is that although Ireland is a small country, albeit one that punches above its weight economically and diplomatically, it is also a member of the EU, and that is not a junior partner in its relationship with America.

Yes. And the whole notion that Ireland cannot benefit as a junior partner in a relationship makes no sense anyway. Ireland has benefited as smaller partner in trade with the UK, the EU, and the US for years. Small economies have their own advantages in these relationships - e.g. less need to prioritise a home manufacturing or extraction base.

Nobody in Ireland thinks that because Biden identifies as Irish, he will safeguard Ireland's interests forever. But a small economy cam position itself well to work with partners for mutual benefit.

I think that a lot of what the UK was sold around Brexit was about being bigger than the competition, not mutual benefit through cooperation. Junior partners have a range of options once they understand this. I think small countries are aware that they must be internationally facing. That doesn't mean reliant on any one power. I don't understand why so many posters on these threads feel the need to warn us that America will always prioritise America. We understand that. This is a business relationship!

@DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry I take your points but Ireland is a junior partner in their relationship to the USA. In what way is it not? Everyone is, apart from China. There is no shame in accepting that. You play the hand you are dealt and Ireland are doing it better than Britain at the moment.

As a country of immigrants who had a black President I'd also welcome a President of Chinese descent, but only as an abstract. Whoever is President of the United States doesn't affect me on a personal level. Even I was a US citizen, the fact he looked like me and shared the same faith and ethnic background wouldn't mean we thought the same things.

The EU is the third largest economy in the world, just after China, and Ireland is a member of the EU.

I don't dispute that. I didn't want to leave the EU but by a slim majority I had to. Everyone has to put up with things their fellow citizens vote for. What's your point?

My point is that we're not that junior a partner with America. The EU has a very different status from the UK. Which makes the way the UK approaches the relationship seem very odd - careless at best, downright confrontational at worst. Why go out of your way to insult the president of a country that you could be cultivating?

Yes, and because of persistent successful Irish diplomacy throughout the Brexit debates, and because of support from Irish America as well as EU, Northern Ireland can benefit from this position too, even within the UK. As Biden pointed out.

Of course there are some in British press and politics who would prefer to placate the minority in the North who don't want this, jettison the Good Friday Agreement, and bring on a harder Brexit in the North.

Which is why it's important to them that their population sees Ireland and Biden as a joke.

As part of the EU, Ireland has much bigger say on a collective basis with the US than Britain does. I don't dispute that and wish we were still part of the club. I also agree it's not a good idea to insult the President of the United States. That's probably part of the reason Biden got a warm welcome in Ireland as Donald Trump did when he came to Britain.

The British are finding it hard to swallow that the ‘special relationship’ with the US is dead in the water now the U.K. is no longer part of the EU.
it obvs jars that the President would rather go to Ireland.

But President Biden visited the UK last week and was insulted in the UK press (see the OP), and by some UK politicians, notably Arlene Foster.

It is a baffling approach to international relations.

The press and Arlene Foster can say what they like, within the law, can't they?

If I was in charge I would not do that, but I am not and my government does not consult me on a regular basis or at all. Does yours?

If they did would you feel obliged to agree with them or would you think that was an over-reach?

My husband and I are Irish, born and bred. We live abroad and our children were born outside of Ireland. They have Irish passports as they are absolutely entitled to Irish citizenship through us, their Irish parents. It is their right!

We do have regular elections with a properly representational system, so yes, up to a point, they do consult us. And we expect them to do their best for us on the international stage, not to snarl at potential friends and trading partners.

It's offensive, ignorant, and I'm pretty appalled by the minimisation I'm witnessing of it tbh.

You're right, and at first I thought 'it's not so bad, it's just making fun of Biden'. As I read through the pages of this thread, I realised that my experiences as an Irish woman living outside of Ireland, have skewed my perception of what is appropriate. I've lived in several countries outside of Ireland, but the anti Irish microagressions happened exclusively in England, and it was often so upfront and 'normal'.

-Mocking my accent when I spoke; literally parrotting back what I said. This happened all.the.time. and was the thing I hated the most.

-The never ending, boring statements that no Irish people ever say, eg 'Top o' the mornin' to ya'/'potatooooes'/turty tree and a turd

-asking if I was in/supported the IRA/did I have a gun

-jokes about me and my husband leaving bombs in bins

• references to leprechauns and pots of gold when I made a comment during a staff meeting

• references to 'your lot'

Then there were phrases that were part of the language such as 'having a paddy' and 'don't be so Irish (meaning stupid).

These are off the top of my head but it was constant, on a loop, never ending and very, very boring.

I got so used to it that it was just a normal part of my life. I got so used to just shrugging my shoulders at it that I am pretty sure I internalised it a bit. Nobody else seemed to think it was offensive so I just took it on the chin and let it go, thinking I was being over sensitive. I definitely felt 'othered' quite a lot.

The school didn’t do much, and the boys got over it in the end.
sorry - I’m not sure what you mean about something being a problem in other countries - bit slow today! Ireland has major problems with abysmal public services at the moment, particularly in health and housing. No amount of soft power is going to help with that, and it’s due to an Irish embrace of American style neo liberalism, so it’s complex

It’s only offensive if you take offensive. I choose not to, given some of the shite that I’ve heard over the years from English people This is petty and stupid in comparison and not worth getting bothered about .
I genuinely think it reflects more badly on the cartoonist and paper than anyone else.

The bully has overstepped

It’s only offensive if you take offensive.

I don't feel personally offended. I think I'm quite good at ignoring and deflecting when it's useful - I like a quiet life.

But it's the newspaper of record and it's just interesting to see how people react to it, very revealing of lots of hidden assumptions.

Sometimes it's helpful to remember that what people say can affect perceptions for good or bad - even if their intentions are entirely good, and even if in another context it would be inconsequential to say it.

Cartoonists have to be really careful when they dip into the well of shared ideas and mental images - and occasionally in the past few years we've seen some unfortunate choices, quite possibly made thoughtlessly, but that won't always serve as an excuse.