To think that the Peter Brookes cartoon of Joe Biden in the Times is pretty offensive towards Irish people?

[Hedwigharlot]

The cartoon depicts him dressed as a leprechaun. It's like a depiction of Irish people from a Punch Magazine in the 19th century. Who thought it was appropriate? And why are the British media working themselves up into such a jealous frenzy over Biden coming to Ireland? Very poor behaviour.

@Fimat
I’m sorry, but how can people in the uk be offended about the Black and Tans.

My father came to the U.K. in the 50s due to lack of work in the west of Ireland. One of his sisters did the same. My grandparents had their house raided by the Black and Tans who were particularly active in the area.
So people in the U.K. my have direct family history that is relevant.

ffs, jetlagged notoriously gaffe-prone man makes a slip when expressing pride in the achievement of his rugby-playing cousin.

Big deal. No-one in Ireland cares, though when he made a slightly abashed reference to the slip the next day he got a big laugh.

I think the British just don't like being reminded of the black and tans. Maybe they don't like being reminded of the All Blacks either, or of Ireland's current excellent rugby form.

It’s because he is claiming that 1/8th Irishness as his “true” heritage.
It’s because many Americans cling to their heritage in a ridiculously sentimental manner, while doing nothing to learn about that heritage/speak the language Etc.
My own Grandfather and Grandmother on my Dad’s side were Irish. Given that my Dad was born and raised by them in the North of England, and I and my siblings in the South of England, I am therefore English through and through (I’ve never even been to Ireland fgs!) and think that people who display an overly emotional attachment to a country they have not even experienced themselves are just being stupidly sentimental over an “affinity” that is not genuine.
I would agree that to portray someone who was born, raised and lived in Ireland in such a way would be racist, but in this case, it’s justified as it points out the hypocrisy and prejudice of the US President.

The 1910s when the black and tans didn't exist?

1912 maybe after the signing of the Ulster covenant or 1913 during the great strike in Dublin? perhaps 1914 after Ulster unionists introduced 25,000 guns into the sectarian equation and made it clear that Belfast was a dangerous workplace for catholics (and the army made it clear that they would not defend citizens from those armed criminals); what about later in 1914 after war broke out in Europe? how about 1916 when revolution broke out in Ireland? or 1918 when Ireland voted decisively for Independence?

1910s is a bit vague.

The arrival of the black and tans to suppress democracy in 1920 was just one more pimple on the enormous arse of British colonial oppression in Ireland, and Biden's lack of any obsession with them is quite reasonable.

Anyotherdude

Biden is 10/16th Irish, not 1/8th. Unlike you, he has visited Ireland frequently over the years and has many family and friends here. He has an affection for them and a pride in the achievements of his ancestors who were forced to emigrate but retained a sense of their own culture. That isn't something to blame him for.

what is his 'anti-English' sentiment exactly?

@DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry I’m also 1/16th French. I have visited France many times - including the place my distant ancestors came from. I also have affection for them and pride in the achievements of those who were forced to emigrate and retained a sense of their own culture (they were a family of Milliners - Hugenots, who were forced to emigrate because of their religious beliefs).
Having that ancestry, several times removed, does not entitle me to claim I’m French, and neither does having the culture of demonising the English by bad-mouthing them into family lore, entitle Joe Biden to perpetuate it. His prejudice relates to historical events, and that’s why it’s perfectly OK to poke fun at him (HIM - not the Irish) for his cultural appropriation!

Why are you parading your ignorance? He is directly 5/8 Irish (10 of his 16 great-great-grandparents were Irish). He grew up in Scranton, a deeply Irish-American town (more than 25% of the population have Irish ancestry) with strong Irish cultural roots including Irish labour politics (the Molly Maguires). Being 'Irish' in the USA is a highly specific diasporic identity. He has visited Ireland many many times, and why should a crowd of ignorant British people take it on themselves to proclaim what his identity is or isn't?

And here are some anti-Irish cartoons. There's a long long history of anti-Irish racism in British cartoons, usually focussed on racial hierarchies and 'simianising' Irish people to indicate they're sub-human. Given the long history of British oppression, including in Northern Ireland, it's hardly surprising that Irish people are sensitive about British cartoons that stereotype Irish identity.

Cannot believe 55% of people think YABU OP. Am born and bred Irish and living in UK since my twenties. Of course the cartoon is offensive.

Much of the UK Biden coverage has been depressing. But unfortunately anti Irish sentiment is alive and well. I don’t get the bomb, turty tree and a turd or potato ‘jokes’ to my face anymore but I do get told that I can’t possibly be offended at things that I very much am offended by - phrases like beyond the pale or having a paddy. And plenty of examples of that hard of thinking in evidence here in this thread. Ireland will always be my true home and where I belong but I was very happy here in the UK, a country which has given me so much and which I in turn have contributed much to but I’m feeling increasingly uncomfortable here. DH who’s also Irish, we moved here together also feels it.

Some insightful comments here, and wanted to share an article from our own Irish Times on the theme https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/04/14/his-hatred-of-the-uk-has-hardly-been-concealed-how-british-press-covered-bidens-visit/

Biden can be as Irish as he likes, not in the least offended, thing is we don’t get to decide how other people feel about their own heritage. And other people don’t get to tell me what I can and cannot be offended about mine.

JFC - we are ignorant if we cast Joe Biden as American, not Irish, yet an 83-year old woman is made out to be racist for asking a British-born woman of African extraction where she “really” comes from?
You can’t have it both ways: either your identity is where you were born and raised, or it isn’t.
Claiming to “be” Irish simply because your community, far from Ireland, has developed their own tradition, based on Irish-ness (like the St. Patrick’s day shenanigans, which, until turned by those ex-pat communities into a celebration, consisted of other ex-pat and internal Irish communities of just wearing shamrock and attending Mass on the Saint’s day) does NOT make you Irish.
Nobody is taking the p1$$ out of the Irish here - just the US President.

And I’m out!

Anyotherdude
His prejudice relates to historical events, and that’s why it’s perfectly OK to poke fun at him (HIM - not the Irish) for his cultural appropriation!

Prejudice? Or understandable lack of respect for politicians who entered into a painfully negotiated legal agreement (that has saved thousands of UK citizens' lives) and have spent years trying to renege on it, crowned by the mad folly of Brexit.

He hasn't appropriated anything - Irish America has its own culture, and no-one was led to believe over the last week that he is anything other than American, albeit with more than half his roots in Ireland.

Yes. Irish-Americanism is a widespread, long-established culture which is important to both nations. Biden didn't invent it this week. The evidence is that he has been immersed in it all his life

Let's not forget that the Tories Brexit has threatened the stability of the UK and peace in Northern Ireland and every woman and her dog knows it. That picture aptly sums up the contempt that most good folk feel for the absolute shit show imposed on us through Tory machinations. It was even better when Joe shoved him out of the way !

Very unlikely to forget about shit show Brexit. My local labour MP campaigned leave and I’ve never voted for him since and told him that NI was an huge part of my Brexit objection. No need for it.

After the vote a colleague asked me wouldn’t Ireland be better off re-joining the union??!!! English friend, married to Italian has had to move her family to France as he worked in FS, our kids were great friends. It’s so sad. I’m baffled by it all, country is poorer for it in my opinion. I understand not everyone agrees and the divisiveness it’s caused here is so regrettable as well.

I am another that took this cartoon to be 100% comment in the way that Biden (and many other) Americans embrace a fake, sentimental and insultingly stereotyped ‘Irish identity’. NOT as a depiction of Irish people per se.

Though on a recent St Patrick’s night out in London large groups of Irish people were drinking Guinness, wearing green, and enormous hats exactly like that

Identity is complex. Why are people so bothered about Biden describing himself as Irish. Criticise him for his politics by all means but why criticise him for how he identifies? Why do people feel they can tell him (or anyone) how they should identify?

My kids are mixed race (their father is Black) and they routinely get asked "where are you from" followed by "where are you really from". They are not immediately seen as British. Their identity is their business just like Biden's identity is his business.

Though on a recent St Patrick’s night out in London large groups of Irish people were drinking Guinness, wearing green, and enormous hats exactly like that

They are fully within their rights to do that and also object to such depictions of themselves in newspapers which they find disrespectful, demeaning and condescending towards them.

No, it’s ignorant to not know what it means when he describes himself as Irish in the diasporic sense. He hasn’t said he’s not American, it is possible to have a hybrid identity you know.

And the history of St Patrick’s Day didn’t involve just wearing shamrock - the first parade was actually in the USA in the 1720s. There’s always been an interplay between Irish diasporic identity and Irish living in Ireland identity, with them informing one another just as Irish people have often travelled back and forth between Ireland and the US/UK etc.

The BBC even suggested Ireland rejoin the union! https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/26/john-humphrys-suggests-ireland-could-quit-eu-and-join-uk

Nope, the creator of the cartoon knew exactly what he was doing. Are you Irish or Irish American? Hybrid identities are completely normal and should be celebrated. What makes you say Irish Americans adopt a 'fake' identity and which elements of that do you think play to racial stereotypes? Interesting score-through btw - drinking Guinness on St Patrick's night is hardly playing to historical racial stereotyping and is no different to Scots (home, abroad or otherwise) eating Haggis and drinking malt is on St Andrew's or Burns night.

My kids are mixed race (their father is Black) and they routinely get asked "where are you from" followed by "where are you really from".

Yes this, a lot of Brits seem to want to have it both ways.

Sure I know. And yer man on CNN that said the Black and Tans were an Irish group. https://twitter.com/cnn/status/1646456960907112448?s=48&t=6dq-4W1XE5uAHLaq1uTzgQ

’tis a pity more people don’t know about Google and parade their ignorance.

Lots of Irish people are saying they find the cartoon offensive.

To those British people arguing that it's not - would you please just stop? Even if you don't understand why, the very fact that it is causing offence should be enough to tell you that this should not have been published. The OP suggests that the cartoon is 'offensive towards Irish people', so even if you don't think it offensive, if you're not Irish then your opinion really isn't relevant.

You can go do more research if you want (eg see upthread for examples of the anti-Irish cartoons of old), but in the meantime please stop arguing that the cartoon is not offensive when you are being clearly told that it is.

One thing I dislike about the cartoon we are discussing here is the implication that a man who loves Ireland can't care for Northern Ireland. The offensive imagery without that would just be twee and irritating. But the political point means that the imagery is being weaponised against what we've been trying to preserve in the face of Brexit etc - hope for harmony on this island

This is a very important post. The cartoon is seeking to diminish an important ally the US (as well as being offensive to Irish people) because it may suit the Westminster political agenda. If the Torys believe they might be a minority after the next GE they could seek alliance from DUP, as Teresa May did previously. The right wing press are already campaigning and they could happily sacrifice peace in NI for an election win.

Back to the topic - enough Irish people on this post have said they find the cartoon offensive so I'm persuaded by them. In the same way I would agree if the majority of Indian or Jewish people found stereotyping offensive & racist.