To think that the Peter Brookes cartoon of Joe Biden in the Times is pretty offensive towards Irish people?

[Hedwigharlot]

The cartoon depicts him dressed as a leprechaun. It's like a depiction of Irish people from a Punch Magazine in the 19th century. Who thought it was appropriate? And why are the British media working themselves up into such a jealous frenzy over Biden coming to Ireland? Very poor behaviour.

The coverage of the visit by the British press has had a very nasty tone. They’ve been trying their best to put Ireland back in its box.

I think this is a very important point. Biden is deeply invested in the peace process in which US politicians played a significant and notably bipartisan role. He was very prominent on the Senate foreign relations committee which worked with Clinton on NI. It's also in his political interest to uphold international treaties, and the GFA is in danger since Brexit and the disgraceful attitude of the Tories to NI.

As such, the cartoon is offensive not only because of its tiresome stereotyping which reminds Irish people of the way British media have a long history of caricaturing the Irish in dehumanising ways, but also because it suggests Biden doesn't give a toss about NI, whereas he has done more than many active politicians to ensure what passes as peace.

Aside - it's a very unskilled drawing (looks like King Charles as much as Biden) and inaccurate (Biden doesn't drink alcohol).

1910s is a bit vague.

@DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry I do apologise. That was vague of me. I didn't think anyone else would be interested in my family history. For anyone who is, my father was born in Killarney in 1918. His father was in London, having left his pregnant wife and three children to get a job in the docks. It was known as a "ticket" and was much prized. The jobs were controlled by family ties and Irish family members already living in London had got it for him. It was a very good reason for leaving Ireland where secure work was harder to find.

Sometime after my father's birth, I think it was 1919 but forgive me for being vague on the details because my dad is no longer available for consultation, my grandfather sent for his wife and children. So they didn't have direct experience of the Black and Tans but they had family still living in Ireland who did. That would be my great grandparents and great aunts and uncles and people like that. Not my grandparents as I said. That was what's known as a slip of the tongue.

That's why I said to @Fimat that British people or people living in Britain of Irish descent, whatever you like to call us, would know who the Black and Tans were. There are quite a lot of us dotted around, especially in English cities like London and Liverpool and thereabouts whose forebears never made it to America.

I also know who the All Blacks are even though I've never been to a rugby match or indeed, New Zealand. Because I'm not interested in rugby I couldn't tell you if Ireland was doing better than England. Are they? If so, that's nice for Irish rugby fans.

Though I am of Irish descent, I'm not Irish and neither is Joe Biden. Though on the Biden Scale of Irishness, I'm a bit more Irish than him. But it's not a competition. He can be proud of his Irish heritage and talk about it as much as he likes. I'm truly happy for him. It's just unfortunate when he makes mistakes. It's funny though. I agree, the cartoon wasn't.

That pattern of emigration, with someone going first and then family members and neighbours following once they have some idea of where to get jobs is so typical of the emigrant experience (and not just the Irish, the eastern Europeans do the same thing atm) and it's part of the glue that keeps the diaspora experience so important and distinctive.

I'm sure people like yours who emigrated during the war of Independence did know all about the black and tans. For people like Biden, descendants of the post-Famine generation, they would never have loomed that large - just one small detail of the overall colonial system.

I wonder whether being 'Polish Irish' or 'Ukrainian Irish' will be a thing in a century's time - I know the Polish government is keen to encourage educational links so that children don't lose touch with home. Easier now of course with world wide access to anything.

Ireland did very well at the rugby so far this year, but it wouldn't do to get smug.

The Ireland to Britain migrant experience is different than the Ireland to USA experience, as is the diasporic identity politics. Biden has the right to describe himself as having Irish identity if he wishes, just as you have the right to not describe yourself as Irish if you don't wish to. What you and anybody else doesn't have the right to do is say that someone isn't or can't describe themselves as Irish as what that means is context-specific, i.e. in terms of how Americans might describe their identity.

This, it doesn't mock us, it mocks him and his ideas about Ireland (shared by many Americans)

Biden has the right to describe himself as having Irish identity if he wishes, just as you have the right to not describe yourself as Irish if you don't wish to. What you and anybody else doesn't have the right to do is say that someone isn't or can't describe themselves as Irish as what that means is context-specific, i.e. in terms of how Americans might describe their identity

Does he though? The notion that anyone can identify however they like is clearly ludicrous. I mean, I am Irish, Joe Biden is not. Personally I don't care how he identifies, but I know a lot of Irish people do not like non-Irish people claiming to be Irish. It can be seen as pretty insulting.

Having Irish heritage does not make a person Irish, and neither does giving yourself the label of Irish.

As I said, it's context-specific. And so in the context of Irish-American diasporic identity, calling yourself 'Irish' means of Irish heritage. I lived in the USA for a few years and people would often describe themselves as Irish, Mexican, Haitian, Italian and so on, which didn't necessarily mean born in those places, it meant they were from that specific heritage, particularly if they grew up somewhere (eg Scranton in Biden's case) amongst a community which identified strongly with a specific culture. Someone in the UK might (or might not) describe themselves as of Irish descent, whereas in the USA they might describe themselves as 'Irish' within a particular context.

It's part of a long history of anti Irish cartoons by the British media. But these days tbh, it makes them look like stupid bigots as indeed they seem to be....

I don't think I said anything about what Joe Biden was allowed to do or not. It's not up to me. I pointed out that neither of us is Irish. I don't think he's under the impression that he is, but is proud of that part of his heritage and feels attached to the country. He might feel more of an attachment than I do, but as you said, it's not wrong for either of us to feel that way, I have my reasons and Biden has his.

He made what I thought was a bit of an error, but as @DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry explained, the Black and Tans would not loom as large or even at all in the folk memory of someone whose forebear left Ireland in the mid-19th century to escape the famine/English campaign of starvation as it would to me, my father or my grandfather. I got that.

If anyone asks, I tell them of my family history on my dad's side - Irish Catholic immigrants to England. If they want to know about my mum's side, English Protestant, I tell them as much as I can about her family. I don't know that much about either but luckily I've never found people to be that interested.

If I was interested I could find out more, but I am content with the knowledge I have and my life in the here and now. I've always felt that way. My family history never figured in my top 3 topics to tell people about on a blind date. If someone started asking me that would put me off - like they were asking to see my papers. In the same way I imagine people who are not white get fed up with people asking them where they are really from or Jewish people get the creeps when someone fetishes their ethnicity and does Topol impressions

It sometimes happens that someone announces their ethnic background and when it does, I always say: "That's interesting." I don't mean it. I'm just being polite. That's the English in me.

Ireland did very well at the rugby so far this year, but it wouldn't do to get smug.

@DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry you don't need to tell me. I get terribly excited about England at football until we get knocked out on penalties. That's the men, btw.

I watched the World Cup Final and it was thrilling even to someone who has no ties to France or Argentina and knows hardly anything about football.

I must soon away to watch the Grand National. That's another Irish stereotype - that they love horses. I like horsies too but what I really like is big ticket occasions in which I have no personal involvement. Not funerals, though.

Sorry for any misunderstanding - you said he isn't Irish, and I said he is in terms of what 'Irish' means in the context of the Irish-American diaspora, Irish being shorthand for of Irish descent and raised in an Irish-American milieu.

Sorry for any misunderstanding - you said he isn't Irish, and I said he is in terms of what 'Irish' means in the context of the Irish-American diaspora, Irish being shorthand for of Irish descent and raised in an Irish-American milieu.

@whatchaos no need to apologise. But Biden isn't Irish. If he was he couldn't be President of the United States.

I agree.

Except, it isn't just his business as he wants the whole world to know (literally) and for it to be everyone's business!

Joe Biden isn't really Irish, though, is he?

I’m sorry I didn’t mean to exclude people
of Irish heritage in the uk. My point was more about why certain media outlets were horrified about the slip up. I personally feel those outlets don’t have the right to be outraged about it as the Black and Tans brutally attacked Irish people not the other way around

Anyway. I personally loved the whole visit. I absolutely think being Irish American can be its own category same as Italian American, Asian American etc
They are absolutely welcome here to retrace their roots. The more the merrier.

I found the whole visit warm, dignified, hopeful and I was especially moved when coincidentally the priest who gave Beau Bidens his last rites was stationed to the church Biden visited . That was such a powerful reunion and connection.

I don’t imagine that bit of humanity got as much press in the UK.

Biden is due to make another state visit to the UK soon and I really don’t think our press will be so disdainful and immature.

@Goldenbear but why does it matter if he wants the whole world to know how he identifies?

I agree that it was a good visit - slightly messy between a couple of verbal slip-ups, Biden being late to almost every event and the sarky attitudes of so many British journalists.

But I think that in general Irish people do feel a connection to the diaspora, and it was pretty amazing to see Biden giving his speech at St Muredach's Cathedral in Ballina which his great-great-great-grandfather supplied bricks to in 1827, and as this article says "helped buy tickets for himself and his family to sail to America decades later in 1851."

I think tbh most Irish people are mildly bemused at Americans describing themselves as 'Irish' but understand that it's context-specific and of importance to many people's sense of identity. We generally take it in good humour and as not that big a deal, all the 'but he's not Irish' comments on this thread are 🙄. Given the historically huge rate of emigration from Ireland, Irish identity (as opposed to citizenship) is pretty elastic and I'd rather Biden and other Irish Americans' celebration of their identity far more than British leave-voters unseemly scramble for passports post-Brexit.

Well authenticity matters for the point of this discussion as that is literally what The Times are satirising- Biden's presents of being Irish. My DC have a very Irish Surname unlike 'Biden' but they have no awareness of this being different, they are just from a country that happens to be named England. Tbf as southerners they don't relate to large parts of the country they belong to just like their friends and I think that level of indifference is probably a good thing.

Presentation not 'prensents'.

That might be the case for your DCs but white Irish is a recognised ethnicity in the UK - it was introduced as a category on the census and other official records in 2001.

There have been a number of studies about how, while Irish-Americanism is 'passed down' as an identity, it's not the case in the UK so much with Irish-British, with studies showing that 'ethnic switching' from Irish to white British typically happening in the second generation. So basically USA and Britain have different histories of people identifying themselves as Irish or not. Some sociologists have characterised this as partly due to historic and maybe residual anti-Irishness in Britain but also white privilege. In general, Irish people have been more welcomed historically in the USA (well since later 19C) so Irish identity has more positive associations there.

Having lived for many years in both the UK and the USA, I have to say that this tallies with my experience in terms of anti-Irishness in the UK and pro-Irishness in the USA.

I know it is a recognised ethnicity but the indifference is probably a reflection of their youth and that it being a fight of their forefathers rather than your interpretation of it which would categorically not feature on their radar, it doesn't even feature on my DH's radar and he is 41!

I'm not interpreting anything, just reporting on lots of studies which demonstrate there's historically been a difference in the USA and UK with second, third generation (etc.) Irish ethnicity (explainer: it's one of my areas of research). I'd say that it has been changing in the USA as neighbourhoods are less ethnically specific in many cities now other than maybe for the first generation of certain migrant groups.

It's just weird. Betrays a loss of confidence within the establishment perhaps?

His visit seems to have touched a raw nerve in a way that just didn't happen with visits by other US presidents. I don't recall any ridicule of Obama when he visited Ireland. And his links are far more tenuous.

Or Clinton for that matter. Perhaps this is the start of the Murdoch Empire's campaign to re-elect Trump? But that's just me trying to make sense of it. I'm no psychiatrist.