To not want to live with my child again?

[Namechangeteach]

This an attention seeking, goady title, sorry, but I've posted about this situation before and got no responses so I'm deliberately braving it in here. It's likely to be long in order to avoid drip feeding, but I'm happy to clarify details I may forget.

As mentioned, I've posted of this before, and I've namechanged because this is outing and I don't fancy the rest of my posting history being attached to this issue.

Long story short, some time ago, earlier this year, my eldest DS had some sort of meltdown. For context, DS is (now) 16, he turned 16 a few weeks ago. His father and I split before he was 2. Ex was/is abusive, coercive, controlling and a true narcissist. I am still processing and working through the trauma the relationship left me. I have, however, been extremely happily married to my now DH for 10 years and we have 3 younger DC together: 1 teen and 2 primary aged. DS1 always lived with me/us, and called DH dad through his own choice, though he knows he is SD and has had mostly regular contact with his father.

DS1 was diagnosed with Asperger's aged 5 and has struggled socially and educationally comensurate with this, though he is academically very capable. He is deeply embarassed by his diagnosis, despite our best attempts to destigmatise. We have always accepted and loved him the way he is, however he has also always been an extremely difficult child - beyond that expected with an ASD diagnosis. He is manipulative, deceitful, has been violent when younger, has a history of stealing and of making false accusations of abuse/discrimination in order to deflect from his own misdemeanours - this has been aimed at multiple adults over the years: teachers, step-parents and parents. Living with him has for some years been fraught with tension, due in part to us being on edge waiting for him to do something anti-social, and in part to our fear of enforcing any sort of boundaries because, for many years now, this has resulted in false accusations of physical abuse. He has never been abused, physically or otherwise.

Most recently, I was the one chosen to feel his wrath. It's never been me before. After several incidents at school regarding violence and their suspicion of him vaping/selling vapes on site (I've since found out he is/was, but they've not been able to catch him in the act) I removed his phone. I don't routinely check my teens phones as feel at 15/16 they deserve some privacy and we have solid restrictions in place on them, but he was extremely angry that I'd dared to take it to look as this is 'controlling' He responded by leaving the house at 11pm and going to his Dad's, where he then reported me to the police for an 'assault' that is entirely fabricated. I was arrested the morning after, held for 12 hours and interviewed under caution. I was then released on bail, with conditions that state I am not able to have any direct or indirect contact. This restriction seemed awful at first, but has possibly been a blessing in disguise.

As my username suggests, I am a teacher - well, still a student. I'm half way through SCITT. This investigation has meant I've not been allowed in any schools at all, my training is on hold. I've had to go on medication for anxiety and developed PTSD and agoraphobia. It's been horrendous. DS1 has been placed on a CiN plan whilst at his Dad's - our DC here have no SS involvement at all. It's now approaching my bail date, and DS1 has been messaging DS2 on snapchat. This means there's no trace of their conversation, but DS2 says that DS1 is miserable. He hates his life at his Dad's, he hates his SM and he desperately wants to come home. He claims that 'when' the police ask him if he wants to proceed with prosecution of me, he is going to decline (I'm well aware that's not how this works, but he genuinely believes he can choose whether to press charges or not: too much American TV/films). He has asked DS2 to ask DH and I if he can come home.

So, AIBU to feel like I have to say that no, this can't happen? My youngest DS has ASD too and has found this life change very difficult already. My DD is younger still and I am loathe to model acceptance of such coercive behaviour in the home. DS2 doen't deserve to be used as a go-between (I have not responded to/via DS2 at all and won't do so. I also wouldn't stop him talking to his brother though). My career may well be in tatters before it's even begun and I don't think I could ever relax and feel sure that I won't face this sort of 'punishment' from DS1 again. I've missed him terribly the last few weeks, but I've also slept so much better and I don't feel a constant anxiety when the phone rings of 'what now?' My SCITT have been fantastically supportive and will welcome me back to finish the course when the investigation is concluded with NFA, I would be terrified constantly that it would be ruined again. Not to mention my DH who has been an incredible support, but there's no denying he's found this extremely difficult. Without asking, I know he'll support my decision making either way, but I also know he would also be inclined to want to say no, though he'd be loathe to say it out loud. In short, I think we've all been through enough over the last decade.

But... I'm still DS1's Mum. The thought of him being miserable hurts deeply. I obviously want to make that go away. I just have no idea what to do. Am I being selfish?

Appreciate all viewpoints, but please don't be deliberately unkind, I am still very delicate. Thank you.

He does not understand the gravity of what he has done and likely won’t. He will spin a narrative in his own head to justify it and will genuinely believe it.
I disagree. I think he is very well aware indeed of the gravity of his actions.

Actually, in a similar situation in our family (in our case the false accusations were made by and adult with ASD) the accuser swung between understanding the gravity of the situation and then making up a new narrative (in fact multiple) depending on their mood (and it seemed how guilty they felt at the time about the original accusation).

It is absolutely exhausting - as well as terrifying - dealing with something like this as in the moment it appears they do absolutely want to destroy you and your life and will take steps to do so.

In our case incredibly firm boundaries (only meeting in public etc.) worked... but we had to enforce them over and over again. If we ever slipped up then the behaviours began again, they really were (very sadly) intractable.

It has however informed what I would do in your situation (and may very well have to do...).

I too agree that you should never have him back.

It's tough to admit that he has inherited the toxic and pathological personality from his father but you must accept this. By accepting this, all your decisions will be so much easier.

As he gets older, his behaviours will become more grand and grandiose. This sort of personality doesn't select reverse gear and become an empathetic and liveable with person.

We have had to cut off DH's son and daughter in law. The DIL is dangerously toxic and lies and manipulates constantly. Once married, she escalated to a ridiculous degree and we cut them off before she accused DH of something heinous. I stopped going near her two years ago. We hear about her antics via other family members and we have dodged a bullet the size of a county. The son contacted us wanting back in but unless he is prepared to get rid of his wife, no way. In our case, we could see it would result in court/false accusations etc.

You must protect yourself OP and his choosing whether or not to press charges is yet further manipulation from him. As I said, as he gets older and is put under more pressure, whether by his own actions or not, he will escalate. He has already harmed you in the most appalling way and he won't stop with you. Imagine your other DC at his mercy and make the right decision. He's not homeless and he is almost an adult. You've tried. Be done with it.

can you ask ds2 to use a second phone or ipad etc to take photos of some of the snapchat conversations?

I agree with a PP too. This is not just Aspergers. He is diagnosable as at least sociopathic I imagine.

What an awful situation to be in. But you know deep down you can't have him back, especially if he won't acknowledge the malevolence and subsequent consequences of his action.
If you allow him back without him doing anything but saying " I,m a bit miserable" then he's just further learned that he can manipulate you through guilt to get his own way.
You cant live like this, waiting for him to destroy your life, your career and the lives of your children and husband when he next feels he isn't getting his own way and decides to punish you again in such a vindictive way.
He hasn't even apologised for his behaviour, instead, he is using communication methods that he knows aren't trackable to manipulate your younger child to act as a flying monkey on his behalf. This is premeditated, he knows full well what he's doing.
he's your son you love him, but that doesn't mean sacrificing your life and giving him power over you, you can move forward like others have suggested by meeting on neutral ground with witnesses because he has to regain your trust in the long run.

What a horrible situation, OP.

Well I think for a start your DS can apologise to you, admit that he lied and also tell the police and social services that he lied and made everything up. Before that there should be no talk of him moving back in. Im not sure your younger children are safe living with a person with those kinds of issues. He’s your son, you will always love him, you may or may not forgive him, but you don’t have to take him back.

DS1 has learned over the years that if you constantly cast yourself as a victim of other people's bad behaviour towards you, then you will get Sympathy, Caring and Tenderness.

People will say it's not your fault.

It's a learned pattern of responding. It can be unlearnt.

Hopefully at some point DS1 will get proper therapy to help him understand himself and his behavioural strategies.

OP I think he’s still trying to be manipulative. He’s sending a message through his sibling that he’d like to come home but this can only be done if he drops the charges. I think it’s an indirect threat that if you won’t have him home, he won’t drop the charges. You are right not to engage and I would have this logged with the Officer in Case. This will help prove your innocence as surely if you assaulted him he wouldn’t want to return?
I hope this is all resolved with an NFA and you can put this behind you. Unfortunately if he returns you would be risking everyone’s future if he were to make a false allegation again. YANBU to not have him back.

Simply explain to DS2 that you are under bail conditions and that you can not converse with DS1, even through a third party. Do not respond to any questions regarding DS1’s request. I would contact the Police and tell that them that DS1 is trying to make contact with DS2 via Snapchat.

I think it would be very unwise to have DS1 home ever again. The dynamic has now changed and you would be held to ransom by the possibility of a future false allegation.

I'm so sorry you are in this position OP. I don't think I personally could inflict his abusive father on him permanently, but I certainly wouldn't judge you if you made this decision in the short term. Supporting him to live independently, as soon as he is old enough, does sound like a good option all round. I really hope he gets the support he needs, and that things work out well for you and the rest of the family too.

Terrible advice. The younger brother is already being used and manipulated by his older sibling.

The answer is to close down the avenues for him to do this as much as possible, not to start using him as a pawn or go-between.

He needs to be protected, not further embroiled and damaged.

Op,I do not believe that your eldest son, from what you've described, has just 'gone off the rails' a bit.

Regardless of how much is due to his chaotic and traumatic start in life, and how much is genetic, this is deep-seated, lifelong behaviour which is way, way outside any kind of norms, even of troubled and rebellious teens. I think you and the rest of your family are in real danger.

Thank you all. It's simultaneously reassuring and also quite sad that you all agree that my gut reaction is the right one.

Since posting earlier, DS2 and I have had a good chat about not having untraceable contact with DS1. He's blocked DS1 on snapchat and for various reasons I trust him not to undo this. I've told him he can always talk to his brother (realistically, I cannot stop this at the moment due to the school thing, so I need to be careful not to be painted as being controlling by banning it altogether) but it must be in ways that we can keep track of. As mentioned, he is fully aware of the implications and why I've said that and will keep DS1 blocked. He knows he can never suggest that I've responded to DS1 through him (I haven't) and why. He's a very astute teen and has seen in many ways how his brother treats people.

I've also spoken to the police to have it noted on the case that DS1 has tried to indirectly ask to come home. Obviously he is allowed to try and contact me, but I made it clear that I haven't responded and won't respond. The call operator assured me that this detail will be passed on to the relevant officer.

Finally, I messaged the social worker who had been involved. I don't know if SS are still in regular contact (the CiN recommendation was the last I heard but I don't know for sure that this was accepted and ongoing) to ask what to do about the attempted contact. I'm awaiting a reponse but obviously this isn't a priority.

To the PP who expressed surprise that DH would 'allow' DS1 back, I just want to say, he would not want to at all. But, the man is a saint and he loves DS1. He would do/give anything to ensure me and the DC are happy, even if that meant he wasn't. He's put up with so much, I won't be asking him what he actually thinks about this. I know what the right thing to do is, I was just seeking reassurance, because despite everything I think I will always feel like I've failed. I hate to think of DS1 'spiralling' as others have wisely noted may be inevitable. But, as you've all said, he is in the home of his other parent and I have 3 DC here who need and deserve to have a healthy, happy childhood. I think DS1 has had us moulding family life around his whims enough now.

I won't abandon him, I will always be here if and when he wants to apologise, take responsbility and rebuild our relationship. But I don't have to be his emotional punching bag in order to do that, do I?

I do think others are right about making a point to protect you (and DS2) about the snapchat messages.

There is a risk to you here that DS2 simply saying hes blocked doesn't cover.

Wow this is a very hard one . I think as long as he is safe and healthy for now you need to focus on having this changes dismissed .
after you can think about contact with him . Maybe let him stay a day a week but no I would nit allow him back right now . And I watchtower a mum to a asd young adult too .

My advice is, say nothing and do nothing. Other than explain to DS2, all contact with Ds1 must cease because DS1 has lied to police that you abused him. That this is a hugely serious legal issue; it could ruin your teaching career before it ever starts, prevent you ever teaching children. IF police believe that lie, then you might be forbidden any contact at all with the three younger children. Just like you are with DS1. On absolutely NO ACCOUNT must Ds2 get sucked in by with his brother's manipulative behaviour. Because when DS 1 doesn't get his way, he will punish and take revenge.

How can you ever have him back home ? You'd live on eggshells, waiting for the next row to result in who knows what lies. She's a drunk driver. She abuses the little one.

But, as you've all said, he is in the home of his other parent

The other parent he is with is abusive, the best outcome for all is if social services can find him somewhere to live like supported housing.

My sympathies op - a close family member has been through something v similar except her ds was in his 20’s at the time and it was his drug-addict gf making the assault charge - with his corroboration! (Close family member wouldn’t do something they wanted).

Close family member eventually forgave him (after he split with his gf) and now 10 years later is still forgiving him for one thing after another - drugs, theft, all sorts of dodgy stuff. I don’t think my relation will ever cut him off although he’s a total deadbeat and causes nothing but stress and trouble. This has affected my relations younger dcs and the damage to family dynamics is far-reaching.

Sorry, not helpful but just want you to know anyone with a bit of empathy will understand and support your not letting him come back home. What he’s done is potentially so damaging to you that it must be a real punch in the gut.

Yes, but not in tangible way to DS. He has never hurt DS, or been overtly emotionally abusive to him, to my knowledge.

He is a dangerous man, but a manipulative charmer until he's sucked people in. Realistically, DS is 16 and SS are unlikely to recognise this behaviour as abusive in the short time we have left before DS is under adult services.

Supported housing would be ideal, and if I'm consulted or able to engage with SS regarding DS in the future, I will suggest it as an option. I know the thresholds will be high though, so I wouldn't want false hope.

Unfortunately in these situations there is a sense of judgment when deciding to walk away from your own child . I always felt like I was a bad parent for cutting contact with my child. I was constantly told " Oh it's just a phase " or " They'll grow out if it ".
The reality in our life was that they didn't and never will. We stuck it out until she was 28 at the point I was almost suicidal ! There will never be a heartfelt apology or the realisation that their behaviour is harming others ,only further manipulation , accusations & punishment if you do not give in to them . We had to make a desicion to protect our family . OP It is a very sad situation I hope you get the peace and understanding you deserve . Stay strong 💐

But her 16 year old son is safe to live with him?

I agree with this.

I know he's your son, but I think it is time for you to step back. His housing situation is not your responsibility - indeed, at the moment you cannot have any input.

He has got away with a lifetime of appalling lies and accusations and has continued with this behaviour because he's allowed to get away with it.

Some people are dangerous. They don't acknowledge or apologise, ever, for the harm they've done to others. They genuinely don't care. It doesn't keep them up at night, they are interested only in what they want and what benefits them.

Your son hasn't done something stupid (e.g. stolen a car, sold drugs) which has indirectly caused you grief. He has directly and personally harmed you. You say yourself he has not and will not admit that he lied or apologise. Even now he is trying to blackmail you for his own benefit.

It's a mistake to assume that people like that feel the same way about us as we do about them - that they are troubled and remorseful and eaten up with guilt, but deep down, really love us.

People who really love each other might hurt each other inadvertently or recklessly, but not deliberately and coldly.

Lines have been crossed here and I think you need to stop thinking about e.g. where he lives as your problem to solve. It isn't. Your problem to solve Is how you keep yourself, your other children and your husband as protected from his intentional harm as possible.

His behaviour is vile and unforgivable. I'd wash my hands of him completely. Protect your family. He will only get worse

I’m going further. At this point I think you would be very wrong to let him home. You have a teenager and two young children in the home whose own needs will be compromised by constant exposure to this. He is old enough to take some responsibility and if he isn’t that’s tough. Your other kids have to be your priority now