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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Do you think it is ok for men to post sexualised reviews of women's knickers on M&S website?

304 replies

EllenLRipley · 13/04/2023 20:48

M&S does:

https://www.marksandspencer.com/se/kalina-embroidery-high-leg-knickers/p/P60574443.html

IABU: It is fine
IAMBU: Women do not want to be used to facilitate men's fetishes, they should delete sexualised reviews

Kalina Embroidery High Leg Knickers | M&S SE

Shop this Kalina Embroidery High Leg Knickers at Marks & Spencer. Browse more styles at Marks & Spencer Sweden

https://www.marksandspencer.com/se/kalina-embroidery-high-leg-knickers/p/P60574443.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
26
Mummyoflittledragon · 15/04/2023 03:55

Fridayyesterday · 15/04/2023 03:17

Your link takes me to the Swedish site. There are 15 reviews, some giving gender and/or age range of the reviewer. The default sorting is “Most Relevant” and, @SpicyMoth says, a review from a male (who has chosen to state their gender, and as male) is right at the top.

The same item on the UK site also has 15 reviews.
However, none of them includes a gender or age range for the reviewers. The default sorting is “Most Recent,” so I had to scroll right to the end to find that same review.

I wonder why.

Screenshots Sweden 🇸🇪 on the left, UK 🇬🇧 on the right.

Yes, I noted earlier that age and gender no longer appears on the uk site. All the screenshots I posted were from the uk site in 2019 and 2020 and did include this additional information when they were uploaded onto Mumsnet. All of the reviews on the M&S website have passed moderation and thus deemed appropriate for publication on the site. My thoughts are the facility has perhaps been disabled in the uk due to complaints about the content of reviews. Removing such markers obfuscates the identity of the reviewers.

GooseberryCinnamonYogurt · 15/04/2023 04:50

I can only see one review!

pickledandpuzzled · 15/04/2023 07:32

It seems clear to me that men are signposting each other here to see each others reviews, so they have somewhere else to post their reviews.
It seems clear to me that there are forums where men can discuss women's clothing, what works well and what doesn't- brands that fit a broader back, for example.

There is no pressing need for men to review how women's underwear fits them. It's only for their own enjoyment. Like most of what they do.

If a bloke walks round tesco with women's knickers on, it's probably not doing anyone any harm- though he's still involving unconsenting people in his sexuality.
However if he starts telling people about it, then that's a different matter. 'Excuse me could you pass me those baked beans? I can't bend I'm afraid, I'm wearing ladies panties and they are a tad tight'.

That's the equivalent of writing these reviews. Telling everyone within listening distance about his fetish. Grim.

Riapia · 15/04/2023 07:56

I’m too late, it must have been taken down.
It’s not fair, I was all prepared to be offended.
😁😁

LlynTegid · 15/04/2023 07:59

If M+S have acted, good, but belated it seems.

pickledandpuzzled · 15/04/2023 08:02

As a PP has said, it's not the actual words that are particularly offensive, but the idea of blokes getting their rocks off by pushing their way into women's spaces to flaunt their fetish. Again.

StarlightLady · 15/04/2023 08:29

I'm told the male and female anatomy is different. In addition to people's comment above, I would have thought any man worth his salt would find wearing women's knickers particularly uncomfortable. Don't they require extra room?

aibuaibuaibu · 15/04/2023 09:24

pickledandpuzzled · 15/04/2023 07:32

It seems clear to me that men are signposting each other here to see each others reviews, so they have somewhere else to post their reviews.
It seems clear to me that there are forums where men can discuss women's clothing, what works well and what doesn't- brands that fit a broader back, for example.

There is no pressing need for men to review how women's underwear fits them. It's only for their own enjoyment. Like most of what they do.

If a bloke walks round tesco with women's knickers on, it's probably not doing anyone any harm- though he's still involving unconsenting people in his sexuality.
However if he starts telling people about it, then that's a different matter. 'Excuse me could you pass me those baked beans? I can't bend I'm afraid, I'm wearing ladies panties and they are a tad tight'.

That's the equivalent of writing these reviews. Telling everyone within listening distance about his fetish. Grim.

There is nothing wrong with wearing woman's underwear in public if thats what the man wishes and he's not involving anyone in his fetish.

aibuaibuaibu · 15/04/2023 09:28

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

aibuaibuaibu · 15/04/2023 09:28

EllenLRipley · 13/04/2023 20:48

M&S does:

https://www.marksandspencer.com/se/kalina-embroidery-high-leg-knickers/p/P60574443.html

IABU: It is fine
IAMBU: Women do not want to be used to facilitate men's fetishes, they should delete sexualised reviews

That is a fetish review. There is no wife.

Eminybob · 15/04/2023 09:40

Am I missing something? I can o ly see this one review on that link:

Do you think it is ok for men to post sexualised reviews of women's knickers on M&S website?
pickledandpuzzled · 15/04/2023 11:41

That's what I thought I said, aibuaibu...

The moment he starts telling people, that changes.

No woman should have to hear about what underwear random man is wearing, as she goes about her day. Same with this. She's reading the reviews to find out what other women think of the pants, not that random man finds them 'oh so adorable, and with just the right amount of cover for my manly parts, which look just so fabulous wrapped in this silky yet supportive shade of lavender'.

Fridayyesterday · 15/04/2023 12:41

This isn't the gotcha you think it is I'm afraid 😐

@SpicyMoth , you misunderstand me, or I misunderstand you.

I’m pointing out the difference in how the same reviews are presented on the two M&S sites and wondering why.

The UK site used to have a space for the reviewers declared gender and age range, but no longer does. This decision might have been influenced by customer complaints about men’s reviews of women’s pants, and I would hope so.

However, the fact that the reviews themselves remain is telling.

Fridayyesterday · 15/04/2023 12:47

My thoughts are the facility has perhaps been disabled in the uk due to complaints about the content of reviews. Removing such markers obfuscates the identity of the reviewers.

@Mummyoflittledragon
Exactly, yes.

M&S may think this appeases (or shuts up) the complainants whilst leaving the reviews on the website for whatever pleasure some people get from reading and writing them.

EllenLRipley · 15/04/2023 14:08

Reply from:

Dear

Thank you for getting in touch with Mr Norman and speaking with me yesterday.

M&S, in its absolute discretion, reserves the right to not publish the Submission or remove it, take any appropriate action if deemed necessary or remove reviews which do not comply with our online policy which can be found here:

www.marksandspencer.com/c/help/legal-and-ethical-policies/what-are-the-websites-terms-and-conditions

Part of the terms and conditions are reviews and submissions should not include:
"profanity, blasphemy, spiteful, racist, sexually explicit, sexually gratuitous or discriminatory comments or content that might be considered to be harassment, abuse or threats against the personal safety or property of others"

I am grateful that you have made us aware of the review you found, and I am happy to say it is no longer on the website.

Whilst we aim to remove any reviews that do not comply, sometimes they do slip past our monitoring system, of course if any customers or colleagues notices a review that is not appropriate, we will act accordingly and remove once it’s been brought to our attention.

On behalf of the Executive Team, thank you for taking the time to get in touch.
Kind regards
***
Executive Team
Your M&S Customer Service

OP posts:
PriOn1 · 15/04/2023 14:27

JudgeRudy · 14/04/2023 20:17

But isn't that the same as what a women might say? I really can't see anything wrong with saying 'discreet cover'.That's very polite. He's not said 'keeps my massive member restrained'.
Sexy panties? That's offensive? Really?

If I bought some boxer shorts and said
"Comfy and practical, nice and loose around my bits yet fitted enough to highlight my booty" would that be offensive too?
Is it just the fact that it's a man that's written the review or is it that a man is wearing knickers that's upsetting people? It's can't be the content surely.

The one from the OP was clearly titillating in a way that is completely different from an obese woman saying she feels sexy in it. And let’s face it, obese women saying they feel sexy are clearly very uncommon, where titillating posts by men, revelling in the close/barely covering fit of women’s knickers around their dick and balls seem to be taking over on any part of the website where the knickers are more lacy than practical.

And of course there is a difference, because the woman would likely be feeling pleased that she feels sexy in the knickers. The man is not feeling pleased as he’s writing, he’s feeling sexually aroused.

Maybe you like men getting off at your expense, or maybe you don’t care as you don’t read knicker reviews, but the women who actually want to find out about knickers, and instead find themselves drowning in erect male members (very discreetly of course, all done in the best possible taste) perhaps deserve some consideration.

Mummyoflittledragon · 15/04/2023 15:59

EllenLRipley · 15/04/2023 14:08

Reply from:

Dear

Thank you for getting in touch with Mr Norman and speaking with me yesterday.

M&S, in its absolute discretion, reserves the right to not publish the Submission or remove it, take any appropriate action if deemed necessary or remove reviews which do not comply with our online policy which can be found here:

www.marksandspencer.com/c/help/legal-and-ethical-policies/what-are-the-websites-terms-and-conditions

Part of the terms and conditions are reviews and submissions should not include:
"profanity, blasphemy, spiteful, racist, sexually explicit, sexually gratuitous or discriminatory comments or content that might be considered to be harassment, abuse or threats against the personal safety or property of others"

I am grateful that you have made us aware of the review you found, and I am happy to say it is no longer on the website.

Whilst we aim to remove any reviews that do not comply, sometimes they do slip past our monitoring system, of course if any customers or colleagues notices a review that is not appropriate, we will act accordingly and remove once it’s been brought to our attention.

On behalf of the Executive Team, thank you for taking the time to get in touch.
Kind regards
***
Executive Team
Your M&S Customer Service

That’s a start. But we are still being gaslit. What about the other reviews people posted? Are you going to reply?

JudgeRudy · 15/04/2023 17:31

Eminybob · 15/04/2023 09:40

Am I missing something? I can o ly see this one review on that link:

If you're missing something I am too. Apparently women only want to hear reviews from women - WRONG - and all men posting are doing it as part of fetishism at the expense of women.

"Maybe you like men getting off at your expense, or maybe you don’t care as you don’t read knicker reviews, but the women who actually want to find out about knickers, and instead find themselves drowning in erect male members (very discreetly of course, all done in the best possible taste) perhaps deserve some consideration"

Drowning in erect male members?
These women here do not represent me.

MacarenaMacarena · 15/04/2023 17:46

The comments from men on the MN sex threads can be rather unpleasant...

SpicyMoth · 15/04/2023 17:51

Fridayyesterday · 15/04/2023 12:41

This isn't the gotcha you think it is I'm afraid 😐

@SpicyMoth , you misunderstand me, or I misunderstand you.

I’m pointing out the difference in how the same reviews are presented on the two M&S sites and wondering why.

The UK site used to have a space for the reviewers declared gender and age range, but no longer does. This decision might have been influenced by customer complaints about men’s reviews of women’s pants, and I would hope so.

However, the fact that the reviews themselves remain is telling.

Ah I understand, my apologies!
I misread the "I wonder why" as sarcastic I think, it was a late night for me!😫

pickledandpuzzled · 15/04/2023 18:12

@JudgeRudy have you read the reviews of male underwear written by men on marks and Spencer's website? They are very similar to those written by women, though more inclined to humour. Essentially practical, matter of fact.

The excessive use of adjectives and self admiration is reserved for men writing about women's underwear.

I would have more respect for your tolerance of nice guys who enjoy wearing women's clothes if you'd acknowledge the difference.

SpicyMoth · 15/04/2023 18:31

JudgeRudy · 15/04/2023 17:31

If you're missing something I am too. Apparently women only want to hear reviews from women - WRONG - and all men posting are doing it as part of fetishism at the expense of women.

"Maybe you like men getting off at your expense, or maybe you don’t care as you don’t read knicker reviews, but the women who actually want to find out about knickers, and instead find themselves drowning in erect male members (very discreetly of course, all done in the best possible taste) perhaps deserve some consideration"

Drowning in erect male members?
These women here do not represent me.

Perhaps I've misunderstood but I don't think that's what anyone is suggesting or arguing? There's been hyperbole occasionally sure, but I think everyone's guilty of that from time to time.

From my understanding the issues with it are;

  • Context (M&S over LH or AS)
  • Content (overt or covert)
  • Consent (Because this type of fetish cannot exist without a non-consenting party)

If it was just men wearing women's underwear, there wouldn't even be a discussion because none of us would know, they're living their life and minding their business.
At the point of leaving a review, it's directly beginning to involve other people.
I'm not sure if you've seen many sex/fetish documentaries or deep dives, but for a lot of people even just someone else knowing that they're doing the thing, turns them on.
The point of dog whistles are that they're discrete enough to not be picked up by the average person giving you the benefit of the doubt

As an example I have an art commission I'm currently having issues w/ the client, because not only has he changed his brief multiple times from the original, but it's now, surprise, surprise, become a fetish piece.
I didn't realise this until I looked into reference images for what he was asking for, at which point I was well over halfway through finished and felt extremely manipulated.
What I found in looking for reference images, were hordes of massive communities talking about the best ways to "Show off their bulge" and be noticed without it being overt enough for anyone to be able to complain and have it upheld or them arrested for indecent exposure, whole websites, whole sections of Quora, forums, Discord Communities.

That's what I would describe as "confident" exhibitionism, getting off on people seeing and no one being able to say anything because that could just be your clothing choice.

With wearing women's undies, that to me at least, crosses into the realms of "humiliation exhibitionism" because as far as the man is concerned it's taboo, that's the very reason why it's exciting to him.

If you've ever listened to men who like to wear women's underwear talk about it, it's almost always very related to their mother's, and the sense of taboo, of stealing it, of wearing it, the specific feel of the material, always silk or lace.
There's also always a moment where they're found out usually by their mothers, and embarrassed - Because obviously that would be an embarrassing situation.

Which furthers my belief that it's tied in to humiliation, specifically being humiliated by a woman. That there's a part of them that wants to be outed because they like being "caught"(even if they're outing themselves) almost as much as they like wearing the underwear.

Does that make any sense or nah? ;n;

JudgeRudy · 15/04/2023 18:51

SpicyMoth · 15/04/2023 18:31

Perhaps I've misunderstood but I don't think that's what anyone is suggesting or arguing? There's been hyperbole occasionally sure, but I think everyone's guilty of that from time to time.

From my understanding the issues with it are;

  • Context (M&S over LH or AS)
  • Content (overt or covert)
  • Consent (Because this type of fetish cannot exist without a non-consenting party)

If it was just men wearing women's underwear, there wouldn't even be a discussion because none of us would know, they're living their life and minding their business.
At the point of leaving a review, it's directly beginning to involve other people.
I'm not sure if you've seen many sex/fetish documentaries or deep dives, but for a lot of people even just someone else knowing that they're doing the thing, turns them on.
The point of dog whistles are that they're discrete enough to not be picked up by the average person giving you the benefit of the doubt

As an example I have an art commission I'm currently having issues w/ the client, because not only has he changed his brief multiple times from the original, but it's now, surprise, surprise, become a fetish piece.
I didn't realise this until I looked into reference images for what he was asking for, at which point I was well over halfway through finished and felt extremely manipulated.
What I found in looking for reference images, were hordes of massive communities talking about the best ways to "Show off their bulge" and be noticed without it being overt enough for anyone to be able to complain and have it upheld or them arrested for indecent exposure, whole websites, whole sections of Quora, forums, Discord Communities.

That's what I would describe as "confident" exhibitionism, getting off on people seeing and no one being able to say anything because that could just be your clothing choice.

With wearing women's undies, that to me at least, crosses into the realms of "humiliation exhibitionism" because as far as the man is concerned it's taboo, that's the very reason why it's exciting to him.

If you've ever listened to men who like to wear women's underwear talk about it, it's almost always very related to their mother's, and the sense of taboo, of stealing it, of wearing it, the specific feel of the material, always silk or lace.
There's also always a moment where they're found out usually by their mothers, and embarrassed - Because obviously that would be an embarrassing situation.

Which furthers my belief that it's tied in to humiliation, specifically being humiliated by a woman. That there's a part of them that wants to be outed because they like being "caught"(even if they're outing themselves) almost as much as they like wearing the underwear.

Does that make any sense or nah? ;n;

I understand what you're saying and I agree some men (not all) might be getting a thrill from posting. I just don't think that's morally wrong.

Freedomfromguilt · 15/04/2023 19:07

www.marksandspencer.com/evaline-high-waisted-brazilian-knickers/p/clp60534211#intid=pid_pg1pip48g4r2c2
For those you who see no problem with men posting reviews on womens underwear or did not get to see the original review I've attached a link that takes you to similar. It is definitely a fetish. It's really easy to find the these reviews on the M&S website, men only review on the itchiest looking pair of pants that no biological woman would touch for fear of chafing or thrush. No reviews about how supported their balls are in period pants.
If I were to buy knickers based on reviews, support for my meat and 2 veg would be rather low down on my list of priorities. The men writing these reviews know that so they must be doing it for kicks.
I hope they stand too close to an open flame in their polyester underpinnings.

Evaline High Waisted Brazilian Knickers | Boutique | M&S

Boutique x Damaris: Intricately detailed lingerie that flatters every shape, crafted in collaboration with British designer Damaris Evans. Mesh and satin panels combine with floral embroidery in these stunning Brazilian knickers from the Boutique x D...

http://www.marksandspencer.com/evaline-high-waisted-brazilian-knickers/p/clp60534211#intid=pid_pg1pip48g4r2c2

SpicyMoth · 15/04/2023 19:09

@JudgeRudy I wouldn't call it morally wrong, just inappropriate dog whistling that's ultimately not needed tbh

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