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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Do you think it is ok for men to post sexualised reviews of women's knickers on M&S website?

304 replies

EllenLRipley · 13/04/2023 20:48

M&S does:

https://www.marksandspencer.com/se/kalina-embroidery-high-leg-knickers/p/P60574443.html

IABU: It is fine
IAMBU: Women do not want to be used to facilitate men's fetishes, they should delete sexualised reviews

Kalina Embroidery High Leg Knickers | M&S SE

Shop this Kalina Embroidery High Leg Knickers at Marks & Spencer. Browse more styles at Marks & Spencer Sweden

https://www.marksandspencer.com/se/kalina-embroidery-high-leg-knickers/p/P60574443.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
26
InTheSquare · 14/04/2023 20:17

But they are forcing those who read the reviews to witness their fetish. It's in plain sight.

JudgeRudy · 14/04/2023 20:17

WarningToTheCurious · 14/04/2023 20:02

@JudgeRudy Both those reviews are males talking about how ladies underwear “holds them in” or provide “discreet cover”. One talks about “sexy panties”.

Good for you if you think “move along, nothing to see here”. Others take a different view.

But isn't that the same as what a women might say? I really can't see anything wrong with saying 'discreet cover'.That's very polite. He's not said 'keeps my massive member restrained'.
Sexy panties? That's offensive? Really?

If I bought some boxer shorts and said
"Comfy and practical, nice and loose around my bits yet fitted enough to highlight my booty" would that be offensive too?
Is it just the fact that it's a man that's written the review or is it that a man is wearing knickers that's upsetting people? It's can't be the content surely.

inyoureyes · 14/04/2023 20:17

Worldgonecrazy · 14/04/2023 20:01

ewww. I hope his wife gets the support she needs recognising her husband’s fetish for what it is. She is probably putting on a brave face for her stunning and brave husband.

Don't worry, fiction 99% time. Common AGP fantasy. It is just wank fodder.

AnneKipankitoo · 14/04/2023 20:23

Years ago I ordered a dress online from M&S. I tried it on, it looked crap on me. A few days later a n ex boxing promoter was wearing it. ( perhaps not the EXACT same dress BUT in their size )

WarningToTheCurious · 14/04/2023 20:36

JudgeRudy · 14/04/2023 20:17

But isn't that the same as what a women might say? I really can't see anything wrong with saying 'discreet cover'.That's very polite. He's not said 'keeps my massive member restrained'.
Sexy panties? That's offensive? Really?

If I bought some boxer shorts and said
"Comfy and practical, nice and loose around my bits yet fitted enough to highlight my booty" would that be offensive too?
Is it just the fact that it's a man that's written the review or is it that a man is wearing knickers that's upsetting people? It's can't be the content surely.

I don’t give two shits about blokes squeezing themselves into women’s knickers if that’s what they want to do.

What I do have an issue about these same men posting about their fetish on M&S because it gives them a thrill to know that women will read their reviews.

Theos · 14/04/2023 20:48

WarningToTheCurious · 14/04/2023 20:36

I don’t give two shits about blokes squeezing themselves into women’s knickers if that’s what they want to do.

What I do have an issue about these same men posting about their fetish on M&S because it gives them a thrill to know that women will read their reviews.

This

SpicyMoth · 14/04/2023 21:02

Tempone · 14/04/2023 20:11

Yes I have.....I also stoll don't see the big issue at all, none of it screams overtly sexual, shockingly crude language. I am very critical of men calling themselves women, but this is men wearing what they feel sexy in and still identifying as male. It's nothing to do with tw or tm. I thought the whole point is that anyone can wear what they want but you can't change gender. These men aren't claiming to be women.

Apologies if this is crass, but from my experience working as a digital artist and taking on commissions from literally just anyone and everyone who wants one (Typically furries. As they say, sex sells and it's a huge part of that community).

Men are 100% getting off on writing these reviews and publicising that they're wearing women's underwear. It gives them sexual excitement.
It's thrilling to them exposing what secret thing they're into, and they get a kick out of it.

They intentionally toe the line between just acceptable enough to be excusable as "Oh they're just reviewing a product" or in the case of art commissions "Oh they're just telling you what they want for their art piece".
That's where the thrill is, it's in toeing the line of what's acceptable and getting away with it, if that makes sense?

I've repeatedly had people commission me, and it's been extremely obvious that they're getting off on even just the process of commissioning the art because they get to talk about it to, essentially, a stranger, and a female one at that!

Something that should take me a week maximum will take me over 2 months because they're dragging it out as much as possible, nit-picking over tiny details again and again, always over genitalia, so they can specifically keep talking about the bit their getting off on.
It's only ever men who do this, female commissioners even those who want sexually explicit art, NEVER go into as much detail as the men do.
Despite this, male friends will tell me I'm overreacting and that the client is just being clear about what they want, ignoring the fact that details being described would not be visible to even need discussing in the first place.

You can review underwear like these without directly referring to the fact that you're male, or that it can "Adequately fit" their package.
Perhaps the world of art commissions has tainted me, but that very much to me at least reads as either "My package is large and it fits in these panties" so a brag about dick size and a statement about size of underwear to mask the brag.
Or alternatively it reads as "My package is small and it fits in these panties", so an attempt at self humiliation, as that's a common trope in that fetish subculture.
It gives off humiliation, sissy porn vibes.

It's akin to low level flashing to me to be honest, or that fetish subculture of men who purposely wear no underwear and specific types of clothing to accentuated and "show off" their bulge.
The thrill is that people are noticing, looking, seeing, reading, the thrill is that they did not consent to participate in that exchange, they're just a bystander really.
It's low level exhibitionism and I don't really think that's appropriate for a pace like M&S.
Leave those types of reviews to Love Honey and Anne Summers where they can be as crude as they like and no one will bat an eye imo.

knittingaddict · 14/04/2023 21:22

samuelabelly · 14/04/2023 19:58

Pretty and comfortable to wear. I sized up for comfort and to ensure no panty lines under my dress but theyre pretty true to size.

That's the only review? How do we know it's a man? Seems an odd use of language but I can see why M&S wouldn't remove the review as it's not obvious it's a raised eyebrow comment

Ahhhhhhh.

pickledandpuzzled · 14/04/2023 21:54

@JudgeRudy and @Tempone last try to explain...

Read the reviews for men's underwear. Written by men, mainly. They read exactly like the women's underwear reviews written by women. Mundane comments about the style, fit, practicality, wash.

These reviews however are completely different in tone. They are fetish fodder, written in an arch tone for titillation.

A further clue- they are massively upvoted and one even complains about the handful of downvotes.

Normal reviews get a thumbs up from a few people who find it helpful. Literally a handful.
These reviews can have 45+ thumbs up. They are clearly seeking each other out, promoting each other, peacocking,

It's all exhibitionism, with unwilling participants in the form of women like me.

EllenLRipley · 14/04/2023 22:07

SpicyMoth · 14/04/2023 21:02

Apologies if this is crass, but from my experience working as a digital artist and taking on commissions from literally just anyone and everyone who wants one (Typically furries. As they say, sex sells and it's a huge part of that community).

Men are 100% getting off on writing these reviews and publicising that they're wearing women's underwear. It gives them sexual excitement.
It's thrilling to them exposing what secret thing they're into, and they get a kick out of it.

They intentionally toe the line between just acceptable enough to be excusable as "Oh they're just reviewing a product" or in the case of art commissions "Oh they're just telling you what they want for their art piece".
That's where the thrill is, it's in toeing the line of what's acceptable and getting away with it, if that makes sense?

I've repeatedly had people commission me, and it's been extremely obvious that they're getting off on even just the process of commissioning the art because they get to talk about it to, essentially, a stranger, and a female one at that!

Something that should take me a week maximum will take me over 2 months because they're dragging it out as much as possible, nit-picking over tiny details again and again, always over genitalia, so they can specifically keep talking about the bit their getting off on.
It's only ever men who do this, female commissioners even those who want sexually explicit art, NEVER go into as much detail as the men do.
Despite this, male friends will tell me I'm overreacting and that the client is just being clear about what they want, ignoring the fact that details being described would not be visible to even need discussing in the first place.

You can review underwear like these without directly referring to the fact that you're male, or that it can "Adequately fit" their package.
Perhaps the world of art commissions has tainted me, but that very much to me at least reads as either "My package is large and it fits in these panties" so a brag about dick size and a statement about size of underwear to mask the brag.
Or alternatively it reads as "My package is small and it fits in these panties", so an attempt at self humiliation, as that's a common trope in that fetish subculture.
It gives off humiliation, sissy porn vibes.

It's akin to low level flashing to me to be honest, or that fetish subculture of men who purposely wear no underwear and specific types of clothing to accentuated and "show off" their bulge.
The thrill is that people are noticing, looking, seeing, reading, the thrill is that they did not consent to participate in that exchange, they're just a bystander really.
It's low level exhibitionism and I don't really think that's appropriate for a pace like M&S.
Leave those types of reviews to Love Honey and Anne Summers where they can be as crude as they like and no one will bat an eye imo.

👆

OP posts:
JudgeRudy · 14/04/2023 22:22

pickledandpuzzled · 14/04/2023 21:54

@JudgeRudy and @Tempone last try to explain...

Read the reviews for men's underwear. Written by men, mainly. They read exactly like the women's underwear reviews written by women. Mundane comments about the style, fit, practicality, wash.

These reviews however are completely different in tone. They are fetish fodder, written in an arch tone for titillation.

A further clue- they are massively upvoted and one even complains about the handful of downvotes.

Normal reviews get a thumbs up from a few people who find it helpful. Literally a handful.
These reviews can have 45+ thumbs up. They are clearly seeking each other out, promoting each other, peacocking,

It's all exhibitionism, with unwilling participants in the form of women like me.

Unfortunately I don't think you've given me any further info to change my seemingly liberal views. I don't find the reviews I've seen sexual. 'Discretely covered' is a polite term. Yes we know what it's covering and yes we know men wear knickers. Perhaps he is getting a buzz writing it. Maybe he feels sexy and delicious. Many women review that way. These will stand out because they're different to the norm. We have no idea who's giving them 👍 likes but let's say it's men....and? If an obese woman posts in a lacy red thong and said she felt like a hot diva would you mind? Most people would think Yuk but some supporters would think good on you gal. Some would be other fat women but some would be just people thinking 'you do you'.

JudgeRudy · 14/04/2023 22:30

Just an idea....instead of asking for these reviews to be banned, how about just having a filter where people can select gender/age/size. If you don't want to see men's reviews you won't have to but of course that doesn't stop transwomen or transvestites still posting as men. Not sure if you would be allowed to put penised person as a filter though.
When you have specific shape you often look for reviews from similar. If I see a reviewer of jeans saying hour glass I home in, likewise fat arms. I want to hear how they'll fit on me. I bet men who wear knickers feel the same. They want to know how they'll fit their individual (penised) bodies.
Yep. I think filter is the way to go with a good moderator.

TangledUpinBlu · 14/04/2023 22:39

There is only one review on the item posted in the op and it doesn't seem bad although the username could be a man.
Have they deleted reviews?
This issue has been discussed on the feminist board for at least the last 5 years and is one reason I'll never buy bras from m and s, on top of the fact they still use the add 5 onto the band way of measuring which is very bad for women's breasts and self esteem but sells more badly fitted bras.

SpicyMoth · 14/04/2023 22:57

@TangledUpinBlu I saw the original reviews last night, some have definitely been removed from what I can tell, and they're the more overtly fetishized ones.

@JudgeRudy There's a filter on the website for those exact categories, not all users specify their sex on their accounts however.
Also presumably if TW were reviewing they'd likely list themselves as female rather than as male?

I get what you mean re; specific shape and honing in on reviews like that etc to help narrow down shopping choices, and I have no qualms with men wearing women's undies if that's what they want to do and it's not imposing on anyone else, but the issue is it kind of is imposing on others when it relates to an exhibitionist type fetish?

No one would bat an eye on LH or AS, but these men are not going to LH or AS where that sort of thing is expected and accepted with open arms, even encouraged, they're going to M&S.
Specifically to push boundaries and toe the line for what's acceptable, specifically because it's not the normal environment, the shock value, the outing of themselves tying into the humiliation fetish aspect, the exhibitionism side of it.
That's why the ones that are remaining up are remaining up, and seem ultimately not "that" bad - they've successfully toed the line and gotten away with it.

Just because it's not overt doesn't mean it's not there, y'know?
People will get off on being discrete enough to get through censor's but overt enough for other people "in the know" to know what they're actually talking about.
Dog whistling technically I guess.
"Showing off bulge" fetishes is a prime example of that.

WarningToTheCurious · 14/04/2023 23:03

Just an idea....instead of asking for these reviews to be banned, how about just having a filter where people can select gender/age/size.

Just an idea, but how about males (whatever gender/age/size they identify as) just fuck off from posting comments on women’s underwear?

Maybe M&S could add some kind of filter so that pervy blokes could only see comments from other pervy blokes about wearing women’s knickers and everyone else could be spared their fetish?

When you have specific shape you often look for reviews from similar.

Oh yes! These knickers sexy panties have great elastic and are great for hiding my dick being discreet.

Slow hand clap for the liberals.

JudgeRudy · 15/04/2023 00:13

I guess I am Liberal then and I accept that I'm in the minority on this thread but where do you suggest men post their eviews?Someone mentioned LH...but they've bought them from M&S!
I did suggest a section for penised persons so we're in agreement there.
Your mock review sounds fine to me (without the crossing out), so 'tucked away' 'holds everything in place' ' discreetly covers' 'keeps me looking nipped n tucked'...all acceptable.
I shall definitely speak with other people tomorrow to see what the general consensus is. People are more likely to let you know they appose something rather than are a bit meh. I'm curious now though as I'm definitely in the minority on this thread.
I'm a middle aged straight woman BTW. I don't have or have ever had a penis (of my own)

Tempone · 15/04/2023 01:10

Well I agree with you @JudgeRudy . I.must be a "liberal" too, I'm also straight female in my late 30's. I don't also think I have ever read reviews of knickers online though! Though I'm now getting heaps of underwear ads!

Mummyoflittledragon · 15/04/2023 01:54

@JudgeRudy @Tempone
What about the unwearable stitched gusset and Angel bra reviews? both ok?

BringtheJury · 15/04/2023 01:59

I just think that nothing is bloody sacred for women these days, men are encroaching on us left , right and centre.

JudgeRudy · 15/04/2023 02:06

Tempone · 15/04/2023 01:10

Well I agree with you @JudgeRudy . I.must be a "liberal" too, I'm also straight female in my late 30's. I don't also think I have ever read reviews of knickers online though! Though I'm now getting heaps of underwear ads!

I could understand it if the reviews talked about restraining members, or huge bulges but the language seems tame, not lewd. Some men wear knickers. Thats not news. Some might get a thrill from posting. Who knows. I might get a thrill jiggling down the high street with no bra on. It's almost as if posters are saying the reviews should be from women only. How can you police reviews? Just ensure they're not crude or vulgar. The 👍 from readers showed they were popular. I'd imagine it's very hit and miss finding comfortable and flattering knickers if you're male so the reviews could be useful. Maybe M&S will realise they have a new audience and get Eddie Izzard or Grayson Perry to front a cheeky ad campaign

discobrain · 15/04/2023 02:14

twinmum2022 · 13/04/2023 21:10

"Lips don't lie" killed me off 💀😂

I thought it was amazing 🤩

Climbles · 15/04/2023 02:41

Is it mainly the same poster or several different ones? They all sound similar in style. Do you have to have actually bought the underwear to review it? If it’s all 1 or 2 guys it seems unlikely they are buying all these knickers. So apart from anything else it’s not a genuine review surely?

Fridayyesterday · 15/04/2023 03:17

SpicyMoth · 14/04/2023 03:57

This one has a male reviewer right at the top, not grotesquely inappropriate though tbf to it ;
https://www.marksandspencer.com/se/linea-high-waisted-high-leg-knickers/p/P60567535.html

Your link takes me to the Swedish site. There are 15 reviews, some giving gender and/or age range of the reviewer. The default sorting is “Most Relevant” and, @SpicyMoth says, a review from a male (who has chosen to state their gender, and as male) is right at the top.

The same item on the UK site also has 15 reviews.
However, none of them includes a gender or age range for the reviewers. The default sorting is “Most Recent,” so I had to scroll right to the end to find that same review.

I wonder why.

Screenshots Sweden 🇸🇪 on the left, UK 🇬🇧 on the right.

Do you think it is ok for men to post sexualised reviews of women's knickers on M&S website?
Do you think it is ok for men to post sexualised reviews of women's knickers on M&S website?
SpicyMoth · 15/04/2023 03:45

Fridayyesterday · 15/04/2023 03:17

Your link takes me to the Swedish site. There are 15 reviews, some giving gender and/or age range of the reviewer. The default sorting is “Most Relevant” and, @SpicyMoth says, a review from a male (who has chosen to state their gender, and as male) is right at the top.

The same item on the UK site also has 15 reviews.
However, none of them includes a gender or age range for the reviewers. The default sorting is “Most Recent,” so I had to scroll right to the end to find that same review.

I wonder why.

Screenshots Sweden 🇸🇪 on the left, UK 🇬🇧 on the right.

Not an intentional decision on my part I can assure you, I went down this rabbit hole from OP's original post & link which you can see is also ".com/se" as opposed to UK/GB.

This isn't the gotcha you think it is I'm afraid 😐