to think its morally poor not to provide ANY childcare whatsoever as a grandparent, if you are retired and in good health?

[uniformotxa]

I have young dc and no childcare issues aside from the horrendous cost. My parents, like many others I know, enjoy being with dc but it’s pretty much always on their terms. They would take them for a day but it wouldn’t be consistent or reliable so couldn’t make it a regular thing.

Im not sure how I feel about this and on balance I think it’s pretty morally dire. Luckily I can afford childcare and nursery but I perhaps would feel more strongly if I couldn’t. However, whilst it’s easy for me to say this now, I do think I would step up and do some childcare for my dc if they had children. I can’t imagine just letting the days roll by leisurely and not setting aside even one day a week to be a reliable help.

I know in other cultures this is standard and families pull together much more. AIBU to think there is actually a moral obligation here, to make some form of childcare contribution, however small?

Yabu OP for your sense of entitlement

"Other countries" where it is more common for grand parents to help out more with childcare tend to have full family models of care where older members of family are also cared for at home for longer by their adult children.

Sounds like you'll want all the benefits with none of the other responsibilities!!

It’s a bonus but by no means an obligation. They did their time bringing up you, they didn’t ask to be saddled with childcare at a time in their life they might enjoy the freedom to travel or be dealing with health limitations.

Not a grandma yet but I wouldn’t be partially keen on a regular commitment to childcare, although I’d be delighted to have grandchildren when I could.

I don't think it is morally poor but I do think it is entitled to expect it.

I don't think it's a moral obligation at all. It's a bit much to have no say in whether or not someone has children and then have people suggest you're morally deficient for not wanting to look after them.
I'm 55. My kids are showing no signs of having their own children any time soon. I'm sole earner. I've done all the nappies/ nights etc. I do not want to do it again once I reach retirement age after over 40 years of work. I'm tired already. I'll be delighted to spend afternoons with them and bake cakes and take them out to treats etc, but I don't want to commit to set times or anything and I don't feel remotely bad about this. I didn't have any childcare help myself so maybe that colours my views.

Nope. It's their choice.

My son has no interest in having children (phew). DH and I will be retired in a few short years. We will be off having fun after a lifetime of slog. We won't be saddled with child care in our best years.

I don’t find it morally wrong, no. Both sets of parents live in different countries to us anyway so it’s just not even a possibility - but even if it were, I find it an unfair ‘obligation’ to impose upon grandparents; it would inhibit them from enjoying their retirement. While for some grandparents, looking after their grandchildren regularly WOULD constitute enjoying their retirement, for others it would not and none of us have any right to expect anything from our parents in this regard. We are all adults and we all have our own lives. My husband and I have chosen to have children and factoring in the cost of childcare (and other expenses) is part of that.

Given that our parents live abroad and so cannot help on a regular basis they do make up for this in other ways - and I am happy to let them! For instance, we spend nearly every school holiday with one or both sets of parents. We stay with them and they provide all meals. They take the children out, do their breakfast so we can have an lie-in, involve them in activities around the house, and also babysit so we can go out for a meal or have a weekend away. I think this is already extremely valuable and doesn’t require anything like the same level of commitment as regular childcare. I already had to ask my mum to look after my eldest son 7am-5pm for 4 months, 5 days a week, when I exceptionally had to return to the U.K. for work a few years ago and already felt guilty about asking her to do that. It is extremely tiring and there is a reason women don’t have children in their 50s or 60s! There is no way I would ask such a thing on a long-term basis.

I also think it changes the grandparent-grandchild relationship to look after them so regularly; the grandparents are handling a lot of the ‘donkey work’ to do with mealtimes, sleeping, routines, behaviour management etc and so literally become in loco parentis, forming opinions on these aspects of your parenting and frankly almost being entitled to have and impose their own views on these matters when looking after your children for such a significant proportion of time. For that reason I wouldn’t want it even if I did live close enough and be presumptuous enough to ask. Even if we lived close enough and they offered I would have to think VERY seriously before answering. I think children deserve a different relationship with their grandparents than that of a surrogate parent.

The notion floated elsewhere on this thread about how grandparents won’t be so close to the grandchildren if they don’t assist with childcare in this way is, IMO, BS. My grandparents were only ever involved with us during holidays or occasionally at weekends and we all loved each other so much. My grandfathers died some time ago now (2001 and 2005) but one of my grandmothers died in October and I miss her every.single.day. There are SO many ways for grandparents to be involved proactively and positively without sentencing them to this kind of long-term commitment.

It’s a cultural thing really . I don’t think in the U.K. at least it’s the norm that most Gp will offer but in lots of others they will

No not at all. I don't enjoy the company of young children.

In the event of me being a grandmother my own children are well aware that I'm there for emergency child care cover only and for regular care they will need to make their own arrangements.

Do you think it is morally dire for people to not provide care for elderly relatives?

I have no family support with my children whatsoever. I choose and pay for all their activities, clothes, toys. If I need help with childminding, cleaning, anything it’s paid for. Friends are ok and we swop and help each other as much as possible but honestly that’s not a reliable replacement. DH works more than full time and I don’t work so I’m two parents a lot of the time as well.

I honestly think when you have active involved grandparents it’s like having 4 or in some cases 6 parents in a family. You’re thereby not bringing your children up yourself, when you get soooo much help to do it.

The families who do have a huge advantage. Over the years I’ve actually found it difficult to remain friends with close friends who have two working full sets of involved grandparents who look after their children overnight, on holidays etc. These people will then moan to me about how gran gave DCs a piece of chocolate or whatever and I simply want to throw something at them. Yes I’m jealous, so jealous I can’t stand it.

At least I know I’m proud to be doing this myself and not having a massive leg up.

Or the other way of looking at this is,b y having a societal structure wherein women can't work, they are therefore kept financially dependent on men, and available to do childcare and eldercare for the male family who "need" it. Because they are kept financially dependent (by dint of not working), and of course the guilt-tripping (putting grandma/uncle/great-cousin Mathilda in a home would be "morally wrong") they can be forced to do such childcare and eldercare until they die, no matter how old they are, or much of a strain doing carework (again, usually unpaid) puts on their own health, or even whether it shortens their lifespan.

Can't tell you how often I've seen elderly women from my own culture, of what we would consider retirement age, still cleaning their own homes, taking care of husbands, elderly male cousins, grandkids, cooking for their whole extended family, etc, while the men retire and get to sit on their buns talking about sports with their (male) friends, pontificating about the ways the younger generation is messing up the world, and demanding their lunch be provided on a plate in their usual comfy chair at noon.

@champagnedates

this

you sound utterly callous

do all the years of love and care that your parents gave you throughout your childhood and teens mean nothing unless they are willing and able to do it all over again for their grandchildren?!

bullshit

I don't think grandparents are under any moral obligation to help with childcare- but if they take the view that any time spent with grandchildren will only be if/when it fits around other things they want to do then they can't expect their children/grandchildren not to do the same.

MIL used to come to see us about once a week, so when my DD1 started school, we asked MIL if she would collect her from school one day a week, so that she didn't need to be in after school club for as many days. She declined, as she wanted to be free to go out with friends etc without having to plan so couldn't commit to a regular arrangement. Fair enough- I totally understood. Over the next few years, DD started to want to go to brownies, music groups, out with friends etc in the evenings and weekends so we were often not available when MIL fancied popping over. She got quite annoyed about this and suggested that we should stick to one day a week that would be her day to visit and none of us would agree to do anything else. If she'd provided a day's regular after school care when it would have helped us, I would probably have agreed.

I don't think there is a moral obligation, sorry. It's a bonus if they will regularly provide childcare but you can't rely on it.

Saying that I'm very close with my Nan so I would be very sad if I my DM didn't have the same relationship with my child, fortunately she does and loves him more than me but I'd never expect her to provide childcare.

I can see where you're coming from, ItsCalledAConversation.

When you have had no help from anyone whatsoever with child care, your patience for the twisting and moaning about every little thing a family member does "wrong" is EXTREMELY limited.

I think it's incredibly entitled to expect help with childcare from anyone outside your husband/wife. You made the decision to have them yourselves, so you need to be prepared to look after them yourselves. My MIL has got roped in to looking after BILs two daughters most of the time. Him and his girlfriend are drug users and incompetent parents, so she feels like she has to step in but it's taken a real toll on her life. She has given up the chance to downsize and move to a better area because she wants to be around for them. She's getting close to 70 and it's a huge burden for her at a time she should be winding down. I think it's despicable but that pair don't give a shit.

My mum had mine nearly regularly but it wasn’t ideal, tbh: she had holidays when we didn’t, and then had things she wanted/needed to do at other times. Maybe ‘only’ every other month, but that adds up fast if you need to take annual leave to cover it.

In my view, as long as they're willing to help on the odd day when childcare arrangements fall over, weekends here and there when you have commitments where it wouldn't be convenient to take a child, then I think that's fair enough from a moral obligation perspective. But expecting them to provide it as standard on a regular schedule isn't really a moral obligation. If they're happy to, great but if they're not, it's a bit unfair to expect that from them as minimum standard. Even in cultures when grandparents help out more, it's still at their own discretion and not forced and there usually a give and take such as financial support etc. So they sort of feel obligated to help as a way to give back

There are too many variables really. There are some families where the grandparents had their own kids when it was a lot easier financially eg mortgages were affordable on one salary, mortgage paid off a very long time ago, their pensions may have been very generous and able to take a full pension at 60. Perhaps they became parents in their early 20s so are relatively young grandparents and so fitter and with more energy than older grandparents, but been able to retire at 60 or even earlier. They did not have to pay for their children to attend university.

Contrast that with someone in their early 50s now, who had kids themselves at 30 or 35, and where both members of the couple have to work full time till 67. They've paid out on nursery fees themselves for many years and are currently paying thousands towards university costs. They are still paying their mortgage and it is a large amount from their salary. They might have paid into a workplace pension all their lives but it won't have as good terms as the couple in the first paragraph and they won't be able to retire early.

I wouldn't for one minute blame the second couple for not WANTING to do any regular childcare at all once they retire, apart from occasional babysitting. That second couple will be worn out once they finally retire and need to be able to do their bucket list stuff that they may not be fit enough for in 10 years time. It just doesn't make much sense for them to tie themselves down for 10 years of more childcare. However, I can see that couple having some guilt as they will still see their adult children struggling with the cost of living and basic needs like housing. Perhaps they will feel pressured into alleviating some of their struggles by offering a day or 2 a week's childcare? I'm sure their adult children would also feel guilt at having to accept practical help from people in their 70s? Perhaps it would be kind of the retired couple to help their adult children with nursery fees instead if they are not able/don't want to offer practical help?

As a grandparent, I do one day a week for my dd2 and sometimes more if anything crops up. But I do it because she was such a great daughter when I had to take on my dd1's boys. I brought them up from babies in difficult circumstances. So I have already brought up two families. But that is not her fault. She was only 12 when this happened and it did affect her life, effectively suddenly having an extra two siblings. I feel guilty it affected her childhood.

Sometimes I do find it hard, particularly when the day is long and she and her partner are delayed at work, I do feel a bit ratty tbh. Grandparents are people and as we age we do have health issues, worries etc which makes things harder. That said, I do enjoy my time with them.

On the other side is a sense of entitlement I sometimes see. One parent said to me she "wished her mum was more like me". That she had her children full time from birth? It was a circumstance that was out of my control. I felt so sorry for her dm, because I had seen her struggling in town with her two year old who was having a full meltdown on the floor in the local shopping centre. It is not a moral issue op - you are wrong. You are not wrong however to feel disappointment.

Basically the message from many MNers on recent threads is:

Grandparents, know your place!

You're not allowed to actually meet your new grandchild for a month because 'baby bubble' and the baby's NOT A TOY TO BE PASSED AROUND!

Your not allowed an opinion, or to buy your DGC a gift that's not on the approved list.

You're not allowed to even mildly discipline your DGC in your own home

You're not allowed to feed them a treat that has 2mg of sugar in it

You're not allowed to communicate outside the approved channels (so only via your son if you have a DIL) nor expect a timely response.

You're not allowed to ask for anything, because that's actually a DEMAND (if you're a MIL, anyway)

...I'm sure regular MN ers can add to those rules...

But you have to be available and committed to putting your own life to one side to carry out regular childcare once the novelty of new motherhood has worn off for your DD/DIL and she's back at work. Even if your energy levels are failing or you have other needs and commitments.
And if you don't, then you're never to expect any help in your old age (not that it would be forthcoming even if you have devoted a decade to your DGDs childcare, of course)

On the fence about it. But I do think you reap what you sow.

My grandparents were very hands off, seen on special occasions and even then we were to be seen and not heard, and had no interest in us really as we headed off into adulthood and has children of our own... But as a result in their older years they would often bemoan that their grandchildren never visited other than special occasions and didnt overly make an effort....

The irony appeared to be lost on them

No moral obligation at all to help out with grandchildren, OP.