C-section not real birth

[Washingforweeks]

I was just scrollling through Facebook and saw a post about women getting shamed for c-sections. I’ve had 3 vaginal births never a c section so I have never personally experienced this kind of…. Well wtf is it…. Ridiculousness. Is this genuinely a real thing?? Are there women out there being shamed for having c-sections? If so Jesus Christ. Seriously?!

Both mine were difficult, with forceps and epidurals, and I’m just very grateful that expert obstetric help was there for me.
And I had no trouble bonding with my babies,

Personally I’d just ignore anyone who told me I didn’t do it ‘properly’.

From all I’ve ever read or heard, it’s often the sort of people who are lucky enough have very easy, natural labours, who like to think that it’s somehow a woman’s own fault if her experience is different. I particularly remember bits in Sheila Kitzinger’s book (she was something of a childbirth guru decades ago) who said that how much pain you experienced would depend on your preparation and your ‘attitude’ to labour.
Needless to say, all her 8 were very easy - even her first.

What, at all cost? She chose the best solutions for her, that made her the best mother. Not really anything to do with you and your own ideologies is it?

Anyone dehumanising my births by calling them ‘extractions’, and then telling me I couldn’t be arsed ‘mothering’ or making he best choices for my kid (but the best choices for me, who also counts) is going to get laughed at. And possibly a left hook. 😆

Women 'should' be empowered to make the birth choices they want to within the safe and realistic options they have. If that means an elective caesarean or a vaginal birth with an epidural, then that's brilliant and I strongly believe that the current barriers to obtaining these within NHS care should be removed. But that doesn't mean that every woman 'should' use pain relief - not doing so is a valid choice too if the woman's birth allows it to be a safe one!

I'm hoping your sister's comments don't offend you @Plannersareus? I've heard terrible things said to mothers that have had to have a c section birth and they are all BS!

What? For goodness sake!! It’s not a competition. It’s not the birth Olympics! Women have elective c-sections for a multitude of different reasons- legitimate reasons. This is not the Stone Age - thank goodness that we do have the option of having a c section, instead of not having that choice or possibility, preventing the woman and baby from possibly dying. Why does your birthing experience trump that of your friends, because you had 3 days of agony? It doesn’t. You both still gave birth. You both did exactly what you needed to, with exactly the same outcome.

The people who say that vaginal birth causes a loose vagina are as as bad as the c section shamers tbh

It's such internalised misogyny

@herlightmaterials

what a sanctimonious martyr you sound

what’s best for the mum is what is best for the baby actually

I see your point, but it rather sounds like the second sister in law was piqued by the first one gloating for ‘doing it all herself’.

The internalised misogyny runs both ways. Plenty of women make other women feel lesser for needing/choosing a surgical birth, as is the whole point of this thread.

I’ve had some astonishing remarks because I chose an elective from the off. It really seemed to offend women I’d done it, like it somehow threatened their choices. And some men (laughably) had quite an opinion about it.

When it comes to birth, some women struggle when you don’t want to do exactly the same as them. It’s really strange.

Isn't it absolutely depressing that women especially, still think it's ok to judge other women and their choices and try to trump them. It's so incredibly sad.

I've had two vaginal deliveries. Both 20+ hours labours. Does that make me 'better' than someone who had a quick labour and potentially less pain? Of course not!

My first started to struggle and I ended up with a Ventouse delivery. Lots of panic in the room. Do I get less brownie points than my second birth that was 'easier' and I only had gas and air??? Of course not.

It's the same with breast feeding v formula feeding. Who's business is it how you give birth or what feeding choice you make, as long as the mother and child both come out the other side alive and the baby thrives and the mum is content with her choices?

It's absolute madness!!!

Some of the comments on this thread are really depressing.

Of course it’s a valid choice, and it should always be choice. But some people seem to think that suffering and pain are noble - they are not, but judge other women for not having “suffered enough” or not having been in “agony” for days on end, whilst giving birth which ever which way.

@Upsadiddles I made an off the cuff joke that women opt for a c section because they are too posh to push - a comment that has been around for years - maybe people too young to understand the meaning behind it

Oh everyone knew exactly what you meant which is exactly why you were called out for it. As for your patronising ‘maybe people are too young to understand the meaning’ 🙄
You made a gross misogynistic comment, can’t brush it off and try to justify it because people have been saying it for years.

A pal of mine had a pain free scheduled c sec and her bf was talking about childbirth as if we both went through the same
thing. No mate I had 3 days of agony.

your medal's in the post love 🙄

Sorry that was supposed to tag @RamsayEaster

It's interesting, there's a lot of evidence that shows attitude / emotions can have an impact on perception of pain. That's not just from childbirth either. I think there was a monk once who meditated his way through surgery ... not sure of the details nor something I would do.

The theory goes that if you are scared and in pain your perception of that pain is worse than if you're not scared. The logical conclusion then would be to remove the fear.

Anecdotally on threads like this you will see women who felt in control of their births (whether surgical or vaginal) report more manageable pain than those who felt out of control or scared.

Now that's on the general level and isn't saying that individual women should feel they did anything 'wrong' during their births. Or that 'all you need is to smile'. Nor is it saying that we have to feel pain to be women or anything else like that.

What it is saying though is that if you feel prepared for your ideal birth AND possible alternatives, then your perception of the pain could be better.

It’s interesting how you keep using quite inflammatory language only aimed towards c sections and then being like ‘don’t be offended though.’
By the exact same argument an assisted delivery where the baby is pulled out by forceps or ventouse is also being “extracted” so it applies to a large amount of vaginal births too.

There is also a thing called the foetal expulsion reflex so in many ways, even a straight forward vaginal birth is an expulsion rather than a birth lol

My DS had to be born prematurely at 28 weeks due to my pre-eclampsia. If I hadn't had a C-section both of us would be dead.

The horror of not knowing if DS would survive, sitting at his side when we could and otherwise dreading every phone call from the hospital in case of bad news. And oh the horror of trying to produce milk for him whilst fearing for his life. Actually succeeding in getting a few drops sometimes and feeling pleased with myself; gathering it up in a test tube and labelling (DS has quite a long name so I had to write small); taking my few test tubes to the 'milk bank and seeing the other huge bottles with other babies' names on them and stopping feeling pleased with myself.

I gave up on the breast pump when DS had a further setback and I convinced myself he wouldn't pull through. That's right; I have failed both at giving birth and breastfeeding in some people's eyes.

The people close to me know better than to tell me that I had it easy. If anyone ever tried to claim that I did then I wouldn't fancy their chances.

You’ve failed at nothing and you did not have it easy. You got dealt a really shitty hand, and you nailed it for you and your son. That’s a hell of a thing to go through.

Anyone who projects their own narrow ideals (no pain relief, natural all the way, no intervention for example) onto another woman, and finds them wanting for not doing exactly as they did, is frankly a bit of a cunt. Which I very nearly said to a woman in my NCT group who questioned me about my choice for an elective, loudly and repeatedly in front of everyone, complete with head-tilt and faux concern and “I just don’t understand why you would…”. But she had it in for me. I nearly stood up off my big ball and bounced it off her face. 😆

People do say it isn’t a real birth. I’ve had it said to me. My first two were natural births and my third was a Category 1 Emergency C-Section as both of us were in danger (all ended well and both of us were fine) and I’ve been told it doesn’t count as a real birth.

It used to really upset me but now I say something along the lines of “well I will be sure to let the performing surgeon know as he decided it would save our lives”.

Ive had c-sections before - I once saw it referred to as abdominal birth and even I think that's a bit of a stretch.

I do think there's a bit of an assumption that it's the easiest option when having had both I think that with a vaginal birth the painful/hard work but is before the baby comes out and with a c-section it's afterwards.

Thanks so much @Ithurtsthebackofmyeyes . And it would have served her right if you had. It is just shocking that some people think that comments like these are OK.

My sil used to like to say I’d never given birth because I had an emergency c-section. She used to smirk and say “well that never happened with my 5”.

One day I turned around and asked “how would you like it if I said you had a sloppy fanny cannon?”

Yeah she shut up after that.

No regrets. She went on at me for about 3 years!

@Twizbe

The theory goes that if you are scared and in pain your perception of that pain is worse than if you're not scared. The logical conclusion then would be to remove the fear.

That is indeed a seductive conclusion to jump to but in the case of labour often a complete fallacy and quite a dangerous one. Removing fear and preparing may well help women feel more in control to the extent that they know (roughly) what's coming and they know they can get through it. And being informed certainly helps women make choices that suit them.

But a whole industry has evolved from this which is used to justify making women believe that control over the pain of labour is largely in the mind and that tools such as meditation and birth plans give them a guarantee of a pain and complication-free labour. It's untrue and mendacious.

Giving birth is a traumatic and often brutal process and historically it very often killed women and children. "Interventions" as they are described, often mean the difference between life and death. No amount of preparation, meditation or ante-natal work gives you a get out of jail free card with respect to the fact that giving birth is a complete lottery. Some of the smugs on this thread may have won that particular lottery and had relatively straightforward vaginal births but that is a coincidence.

Of course women who want to labour at home and without pain relief etc should be able to make those choices. But the idea that better control of your mind or less fear or avoiding modern medicine will enable you to bypass the risk, pain and danger is justs dishonest. And so many women are made to feel inadequate and guilty because their births have involved "interventions" of various kinds when in fact they ought to be able to celebrate the fact that those interventions have kept them alive.

What negative impact do you think having a c-section has on the baby? You know a c-section is much safer for the baby, but riskier for the mother, right?