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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Those of you who voted for Brexit when is it going to get better and how?

1000 replies

N0addedsalt · 12/04/2023 07:40

I didn’t and didn’t see any benefits. Tried to refocus anger about the lies during the campaign to resignation and acceptance. Was ready to try and embrace/ focus on positives and move forward but still really can’t see any. Now just getting increasingly worried and also fearful.

Hit me with all the benefits and when we’re going to see them impacting our lives.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
31
Mirabai · 12/04/2023 17:34

I was a Remainer, I now consider myself an Accepter. Stamping my feet about the result wont change it, and I dont think we should try to change a democratic vote just because we disagree with it. I think that's a slippery slope.

So it doesn’t matter how much on the skids we are economically, it doesn’t matter how far into poverty we fall: we just carry on over cliff because the country cannot admit it’s made a mistake and cliffs are lethal?

As for referendums being democratic - just ask the Germans if that’s even true - they outlawed them after WWII.

BrimFire · 12/04/2023 17:35

MzHz · 12/04/2023 17:31

Erm because there ARE NO benefits of Brexit?

see? That’s not opinion, it’s fact

Avoided the question of why you think it’s ok to generalise by looks.

Windingdown · 12/04/2023 17:42

BrimFire · 12/04/2023 17:35

Avoided the question of why you think it’s ok to generalise by looks.

It is not helpful or constructive to generalise by looks.
Neither is this entire thread is another attack. The OP was a question.

blackpearwhitelilies · 12/04/2023 17:43

MarshaBradyo · 12/04/2023 17:13

I don’t think people are being silenced. These threads run often.

I wondering why with all this anger it’s not being represented in any way politically

'Want to silence' - the constant 'just accept it and move on' 'Remoaners' 'bad losers'.

Labour is scared of alienating the red wall, which accounts for some of the pusillanimity.

Clavinova · 12/04/2023 17:48

Howpo
highest inflation in Europe and world beating super high energy

We don't have the highest inflation in Europe or even the highest energy prices in Europe:

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/prc_hicp_manr/default/table?lang=en

Various charts for electricity and gas:
https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/03/29/energy-crisis-in-europe-which-countries-have-the-cheapest-and-most-expensive-electricity-a

Mirabai · 12/04/2023 17:49

OlympicProcrastinator · 12/04/2023 17:27

Sorry, this is bad why? The immigrants that are coming now from these ‘far flung’ places tend to be more highly skilled than the lower skilled Europeans.

And anyone who applied to pick fruit and veg during lockdown will know we definitely DO have people to pick it, but the farmers don’t want us as we wouldn’t pay them a large percentage of a wage to live in an on-site caravan. They exploited foreign workers.

Because Brexiters believed Brexit would limit immigration. They believed that British people would fill the jobs instead. They were wrong on both counts. This country needs immigrants. Halting immigration from one source simply necessitates another.

European medics and car industry workers are not un-skilled, quite the opposite, their talents were valued here.

Farmers were clear: British workers don’t want low paid, seasonal, rural, physically demanding jobs with long hours. They don’t have the skills or the stamina of foreign pickers. They want 40 hour Mon to Fri jobs. Farmers say few British workers turn up for interviews and many don’t return after a few days work.

Kendodd · 12/04/2023 17:50

Mirabai · 12/04/2023 17:34

I was a Remainer, I now consider myself an Accepter. Stamping my feet about the result wont change it, and I dont think we should try to change a democratic vote just because we disagree with it. I think that's a slippery slope.

So it doesn’t matter how much on the skids we are economically, it doesn’t matter how far into poverty we fall: we just carry on over cliff because the country cannot admit it’s made a mistake and cliffs are lethal?

As for referendums being democratic - just ask the Germans if that’s even true - they outlawed them after WWII.

Thing is, Brexit HAS happened, we are out of the EU, they won, they got what wanted. What is wrong with the electorate saying, this is a fucking disaster, and trying to reduce the damage? Genuine question, how is that not democratic?

LyndaLaHughes · 12/04/2023 17:51

"But no one attacks remainers"

Yes they do! Especially in the early days. My whole point was that remainers present evidence and facts and I've yet to see a Brexiteer present anything of the sort as regards the benefits. I'd be delighted if they did. But they don't. I don't agree that people asking for the benefits are being rhetorical or provocative. I think people are genuinely worried about the mess we are in and desperately looking for some positives.
The Tories blamed the EU and immigrants for all the mess they made and people believed it. Now they are making even more of a mess, Brexit aside and they are still trying to point the blame elsewhere. How can anyone still not see the mess we are in in this country is solely down to them? Boris was a remainer until it suited his political aspirations not to be. The referendum was all about infighting in the Conservative Party. They didn't think people would actually vote for it. The amount of money it has already cost and will continue to cost our economy is staggering. You only have to look at the latest forecast for economic growth. Our forecast is the worst- worse than Russia and a projected shrinkage not growth. It's not coincidence that campaigns to leave the EU in other European countries have completely fallen apart. Many of which were far more pro-leaving than we were. They most certainly aren't anymore.

Mirabai · 12/04/2023 17:53

Kendodd · 12/04/2023 17:50

Thing is, Brexit HAS happened, we are out of the EU, they won, they got what wanted. What is wrong with the electorate saying, this is a fucking disaster, and trying to reduce the damage? Genuine question, how is that not democratic?

Quite.

MarshaBradyo · 12/04/2023 17:54

blackpearwhitelilies · 12/04/2023 17:43

'Want to silence' - the constant 'just accept it and move on' 'Remoaners' 'bad losers'.

Labour is scared of alienating the red wall, which accounts for some of the pusillanimity.

Do you think those charts / polls which show dissatisfaction are less attributable to the red wall?

So Remainers are annoyed but Brexit / red wall still holds the sway when it comes to policy

It may well be the reason there are a couple of angry Brexit threads running today but it’s not impacting Labour policy

TooBigForMyBoots · 12/04/2023 18:11

Jonei · 12/04/2023 16:39

They feltthey had nothing to lose. Therealityis they could lose a lot. And they have.

Well yes. But some more than others. Those who had nothing are still pretty much in the same position.

They are in a notably worse position. EU development funding has gone. As is the Tory Leveling Up agenda that was supposed to plug some of the gaps left.

Clavinova · 12/04/2023 18:11

Windingdown
Labour’s top 50 achievements between 1997 and 2010

28 January 2009
Britain's economy will be the hardest hit in the developed world in what is expected to be the "deepest recession since the second world war," the International Monetary Fund said today.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2009/jan/28/ilo-global-unemployment-to-soar

SerafinasGoose · 12/04/2023 18:16

Prahdeepx · 12/04/2023 17:21

I experienced that too. The government gave away British fishing rights as part of the deal to join the EU, destroying British fishing industries. A lot of older people are still salty about that. After Brexit there was a great deal of schadenfreude, “now we’ve done to you what you did to us in the 70s, by taking away the fishing rights and destroying your businesses, like you destroyed ours when you took those same rights from us”.

Yep. And now there's a growing list of beaches we can't use because the sea is newly-polluted with raw sewage.

Some of these same beaches had blue flag awards a matter of mere years ago.

GettingThereCharleyBear · 12/04/2023 18:22

@fairywhale gosh your arguments are so well argued and intelligent 🙄.

Mirabai · 12/04/2023 18:26

Clavinova · 12/04/2023 18:11

Windingdown
Labour’s top 50 achievements between 1997 and 2010

28 January 2009
Britain's economy will be the hardest hit in the developed world in what is expected to be the "deepest recession since the second world war," the International Monetary Fund said today.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2009/jan/28/ilo-global-unemployment-to-soar

Sorry what? The global financial crisis was Labour’s fault?

The reason the U.K. was so badly hit was due to the nature of our economy. Our financial sector is large compared to other major European economies and our manufacturing base small. We are much more dependent on finance, real estate and retail than other major economies such France and Germany which both have large manufacturing sectors, and we had invested too much in services and not enough in business. We were over-reliant on credit. Etc.

The shift of focus from manufacturing to finance in the 80s was the Tories idea.

SerafinasGoose · 12/04/2023 18:28

OlympicProcrastinator · 12/04/2023 17:33

Windingdown Yes best years we’ve had in this country in my lifetime and I’m middle aged. Definitely wasn’t perfect and Iraq was unforgivable, but home leadership was the best it’s ever been and worryingly, nothing better on the horizon.

The problem is that lot of the good statistics quoted above were directly predicated on the debt bubble which then, predictably, burst on 18 September 2008.

By that point Blair had already achieved his own personal ambition of serving as PM for a decade. Brown was a sitting duck from day one of his premiership, and he and everyone else knew it.

Blair is not a person in favour with me right now, largely for the utter carnage that is the state of our higher education system. Following his introduction of tuition fees and stampeding over the long-held British principle that free education should be a right, our universities have now been turned into an aggressive, capitalist business bun fight.

The fox hunting ban only ever worked on paper as it was a messed-up, bungled piece of legislation.

As for devolution, just look at the mess that's led to in Scotland. Sure, the Good Friday agreement was a wonderful thing.

I should add the disclaimer at this point that I wouldn't vote Tory with a gun held to my head. There is a reason that particular PM was known as Tory Blair. He was operating on precisely the same neoliberalist model so beloved of Thatcher, who appeared universally loathed (even though just like him, the electorate kept voting her back in).

The War Against Terror, later changed to the 'War on Terror' when its first apt acronym became apparent, was not this country's finest hour and did its security absolutely no favours.

And the David Kelly affair was a national disgrace.

MarshaBradyo · 12/04/2023 18:37

SerafinasGoose · 12/04/2023 18:28

The problem is that lot of the good statistics quoted above were directly predicated on the debt bubble which then, predictably, burst on 18 September 2008.

By that point Blair had already achieved his own personal ambition of serving as PM for a decade. Brown was a sitting duck from day one of his premiership, and he and everyone else knew it.

Blair is not a person in favour with me right now, largely for the utter carnage that is the state of our higher education system. Following his introduction of tuition fees and stampeding over the long-held British principle that free education should be a right, our universities have now been turned into an aggressive, capitalist business bun fight.

The fox hunting ban only ever worked on paper as it was a messed-up, bungled piece of legislation.

As for devolution, just look at the mess that's led to in Scotland. Sure, the Good Friday agreement was a wonderful thing.

I should add the disclaimer at this point that I wouldn't vote Tory with a gun held to my head. There is a reason that particular PM was known as Tory Blair. He was operating on precisely the same neoliberalist model so beloved of Thatcher, who appeared universally loathed (even though just like him, the electorate kept voting her back in).

The War Against Terror, later changed to the 'War on Terror' when its first apt acronym became apparent, was not this country's finest hour and did its security absolutely no favours.

And the David Kelly affair was a national disgrace.

The problem is that lot of the good statistics quoted above were directly predicated on the debt bubble which then, predictably, burst on 18 September 2008.

This isn’t often mentioned on mn but I agree.

Clavinova · 12/04/2023 18:39

Mirabai
The shift of focus from manufacturing to finance in the 80s was the Tories idea

New Labour oversaw a historic collapse in British industry. Between 1997 and 2007, output from all manufacturing, value adjusted for inflation, fell by 3% — while a million workers lost their jobs. Despite the post-industrial paeans of New Labour this was not inevitable: over broadly the same period, between 2000 and 2006, manufacturing output rose in the US, Germany and France. Most striking of all, manufacturing as a share of the overall economy fell more under Blair than Thatcher and Major combined.

(a left-wing journalist wrote the article by the way)
https://unherd.com/2022/04/how-blair-broke-britain/

Howpo · 12/04/2023 18:40

Clavinova · 12/04/2023 17:48

Howpo
highest inflation in Europe and world beating super high energy

We don't have the highest inflation in Europe or even the highest energy prices in Europe:

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/prc_hicp_manr/default/table?lang=en

Various charts for electricity and gas:
https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/03/29/energy-crisis-in-europe-which-countries-have-the-cheapest-and-most-expensive-electricity-a

You don't know what rate of change means do you? its not the annual inflation rate.

And your energy price chart puts the UK 3rd from top but doesn't include the loss of £67 per month subsidy...

So we do have the highest energy and inflation.

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 12/04/2023 18:41

Clavinova · 12/04/2023 18:11

Windingdown
Labour’s top 50 achievements between 1997 and 2010

28 January 2009
Britain's economy will be the hardest hit in the developed world in what is expected to be the "deepest recession since the second world war," the International Monetary Fund said today.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2009/jan/28/ilo-global-unemployment-to-soar

Yaaay Clav! We've sorely missed your ultra selective copy and pasting on this thread. Shame you link doesn't diminish or negate the 50 achievements listed by the PP. Nor does it provide any evidence that we were hardest hit by the global financial crisis (World Bank GDP data puts the UK as 32nd hardest hit if you're intrested).

On a side note isn't it weird that tories/brexiteers will point to global crises such as covid to defend the tories/brexit but will then happily use global crises such as the US induced financial collapse of 2008 to bash Labour with. Suppose that's just classic tory for you though, do as I say not as I do and all that.

Howpo · 12/04/2023 18:43

Clavinova · 12/04/2023 18:39

Mirabai
The shift of focus from manufacturing to finance in the 80s was the Tories idea

New Labour oversaw a historic collapse in British industry. Between 1997 and 2007, output from all manufacturing, value adjusted for inflation, fell by 3% — while a million workers lost their jobs. Despite the post-industrial paeans of New Labour this was not inevitable: over broadly the same period, between 2000 and 2006, manufacturing output rose in the US, Germany and France. Most striking of all, manufacturing as a share of the overall economy fell more under Blair than Thatcher and Major combined.

(a left-wing journalist wrote the article by the way)
https://unherd.com/2022/04/how-blair-broke-britain/

This however is correct.... but doesn't account for the fact that Blair grew the economy as a whole, services outstripped manufacturing but despite all this, might surprise some to realise the UK is still, just in the top 10 of manufacturing nations in the world.

Its just that we don't make too many finished items.

SerafinasGoose · 12/04/2023 18:50

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 12/04/2023 18:41

Yaaay Clav! We've sorely missed your ultra selective copy and pasting on this thread. Shame you link doesn't diminish or negate the 50 achievements listed by the PP. Nor does it provide any evidence that we were hardest hit by the global financial crisis (World Bank GDP data puts the UK as 32nd hardest hit if you're intrested).

On a side note isn't it weird that tories/brexiteers will point to global crises such as covid to defend the tories/brexit but will then happily use global crises such as the US induced financial collapse of 2008 to bash Labour with. Suppose that's just classic tory for you though, do as I say not as I do and all that.

I suppose if we want to put the blame anywhere for the last great financial crash, the point at which the rot really set in was with the deregulation of the banks in the mid 1980s. Which, incidentally, happened under a Tory government.

Or if we really want to push it back to its origins, we could point to the Wall Street deregulation which prompted others globally to adopt that model. Thanks for nothing, Bill Clinton.

A major mistake the Blair government made was to bail out Northern Rock with taxpayer funds. IMO they should have let the bastards crash. There would have been serious, short-term losses after which the economy might have recovered sooner; as it was, we've ended up following the protracted period of stagnation and deflation seen recently in Japan. That's without the rewarding of the bankers' longstanding incompetence and avarice that led to the whole mess in the first place.

verdantverdure · 12/04/2023 18:50

A couple of months old but...

www.cityam.com/revealed-brits-are-paying-the-highest-electricity-bills-in-the-entire-world/?amp=1

Crikeyalmighty · 12/04/2023 18:53

if my experience is anything to go by working in a place that's being used for visa applications. It's full of 'all levels' - from far flung places- mainly families and non white ,but what makes you think they are all hugely skilled? They are feeding you bullshit and what they think people want to hear. I'm not seeing a centre full of software engineers and brain surgeons and Why is it of any more benefit to have a phillipino nurse than a Czech one? European people were not here stealing working class peoples jobs - they couldn't get enough people to do a lot of these jobs as it was , you didn't get a business bonus by employing a Polish person over an English person and judging by posts on mumsnet it's because a lot of our own people had sussed out unless you are in at least a moderately well paid job that if you had several children and rent , you were often better off doing 15 hours a week or 'splitting up' with your partner on paper and claiming. I'm actually a very socially minded person but there are plenty of sharp cookies out there who arent career minded and are more than happy to not get on in life and get the maximum out the system. Anyone who doesn't realise that is pretty naive.

Kendodd · 12/04/2023 19:01

I wouldn't take much notice of @Clavinova tbh.
She was all over MN during partygate believing every single word Boris Johnson said, with links and everything.

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