Do these fathers actually want children?

[Daftasyoulike]

I see a lot of posts on MN about absent Fathers who don't pay maintenance, don't make any effort to see their children, etc. Is it unreasonable to ask whether these men ever actually wanted kids in the first place, or was it a case of accidental pregnancies, which were allowed to continue in the hope that 'he will come around to the idea once the baby arrives', and then when the relationship breaks up, you find that he never really cared about having the kids in the first place, so doesn't feel he should contribute emotionally or financially to the raising of his children?

OP you won't get a fair hearing on here! On MN its always always the mans fault! Women don't do things like trick men into pregnancy or think its a fantastic idea to have a child with someone they barely know and who they may have only slept with a couple of times!!!!! yes men should take responsibility for contraception but mistakes happen and then only the woman gets a choice on the outcome, yet she is surprised when she ends up a single parent with a child who's father doesn't want to know!

Exactly, the double standards on MN is something else.

If a woman deliberately lies about being on the pill but isn't and subsequently gets pregnant, it's seen as the man's fault because he "shouldn't ejaculate in a statement woman's vagina if he didn't want a baby". YET, if a man were to poke holes in a condom, MN would be in uproar but it would never been seen as the woman's fault...it would NEVER be said that "if a woman didn't want a baby she should have gone on the pill too". It's outrageous.

But not unexpected, given I known several
women who I know for sure have treated the father of their children diabolically...you never hear anything about that on MN either as of course all mothers are perfect

Don't know where the random "statement" came from?!

@SmileyPaella it's wrong for anyone trick anyone into conceiving a child. I got dealt a rough card because I was deceived and child was still unwanted by the so-called father.

It's kind of true that you shouldn't ejacualte in a woman if you plan on abandoning the child. They're a living person - more important than your 10 seconds of orgasm. You can still have sex without ejaculating into someone, so hardly unreasonable.

Oh go away. There are plenty of threads where women will absolute condemn any attempts to justify "tricking" anyone into fatherhood. The "double standard" thing is a cheap way to try and avoid the uncomfortable truth that threads like this highlight, that women are statistically and anecdotally absolutely do get the short straw in almost scenarios. The fact that there are a small minority of scenarios where men are "tricked" does not change that. Ultimately, there is only one biological advantage women have, which is the extra roll of the dice if pregnancy occurs. Men know that and absolutely should take responsibility for their own protection on top of anything the woman says to them, if they are not prepared to bear the possible consequences

I don't necessarily disagree...but it's the double standards on MM that really rattles me. Not just about this, about many things. I have a very close male friend whose ExDW literally makes his life living hell, makes up stories about him that to his DD that I 100% know aren't true. She's vile. It's almost driven him to suicide and he genuinely, absolutely would like to take her to court but he can't afford it. But apparently on MN that's all a front for men being dickheads and shit fathers. By law of probability, many women such as those will be on here.

I think what many men really want is a '1950's style' wife. One who does all the housework and cooks his meal every night. They confusedly think that having a baby will somehow turn their partner into this domestic wife.

Of course they also like the idea of 'father' as a status, but want/expect the woman to do all the actual work of parenting.

They don't say this out loud, but this is the common fantasy.

But somehow they think the woman is also supposed to pay half of all the bills.

This

yes I agree with this. Ive seen this with the men in my own family. My dbro expected his wife to stay at home to do all the cooking, cleaning, shopping, childcare and have his meal on the table when he came home from work he wasn't happy when she wanted her own independence and to go out to work as it meant she wouldn't be there to have his evening meal on the table and he'd have to do a couple of hours of parenting his own kids until she got home from work.
Many men just expect women to take over from their mothers and look after them so they can carry on doing as they please being looked after by "her indoors".

I agree with both of you. I had a friend who could never meet me without her kids until they were old enough to attend school. I asked why her partner couldn’t have them for a few hours considering he was at the time unemployed long term, and she said he said “a child should be with their mother”.
Not surprisingly she is has consistently been the one who liaises with schools, deals with bills and organises every single one of the kids birthdays and Christmas presents and holidays despite them both working now.

And another friends partner has kids in various countries that he doesn’t financially support. I could never get with an absent father! It definitely should be something men are shamed for.

I don’t care if they think they were “tricked” into it. You rarely hear stories of decent responsible men “lured” into fathering children hmm wonder why that is? Perhaps because the decent ones don’t leave it to women and use their own condoms.

to the pp saying it mostly happens to people who weren’t married, I don’t have stats but most of my friends whose kids have absent fathers were once married to the father of their children. In a couple of cases the men were actively pushing for another child shortly before they jumped ship. I have no idea what their logic on the second child was.

I do know one girl from school who was casually seeing a guy and fell pregnant and that guy has denied the child. She did make a stupid choice by having sex with an irresponsible guy unprotected, but so did he and she’s been left to bring up the child.

As for men not wanting kids…maybe it’s a cultural thing but ALL of the men I know/have dated who are from Eastern European backgrounds, African and Caribbean backgrounds and even some American cultures definitely want at least two children and see that as a non-negotiable in a marriage unless of course there are fertility issues . It’s certainly not something foisted on them by their wives.

I think that’s what a lot of women think men think. But most men are pretty ambivalent about having kids in the first place. It’s women who push for them ; no pun intended.

I think many men that don't parent never wanted the children in the first place. I think some think it's in everyone's interest to cut ties due to drama with the mum and some quite like the idea of a family but the reality of looking after 2 kids in a bed sit/nanas house is far from rosey...and finally men that have small children probably haven't really bonded in a deep and meaningful way.
I'd like to see the stats of teen v baby/toddler relationships.

I think women would likely think more carefully about having a baby if they had to give it unconditional financial support like men do, rather than knowing they can give it up for adoption and move on. If they had to continue paying for 18 years it'd be an entirely different scenario.

@StepAwayFromTheBiscuitJar what??? How many single mums do you know of who gave the baby up for adoption but the father continued to pay for it? That literally makes no sense. Millions in unpaid child support is owed by absent fathers. Over 90% of single parents are female. Very very few give their babies up for adoption and rarely if ever for purely financial reasons.

Yeah, but a woman can decide to either not have the baby or give it up for adoption. A bloke has no say whether he becomes a father or has to financially support a child, despite contraceptive measures being of mutual responsibility.

Of course, I believe in 'her body, her choice' etc, but I feel men are a lot more likely to end up as an unwilling parent as generally an unwilling female wouldn't usually have the baby.

Yes, they should take precautions like condoms etc but I think it's unrealistic to say they shouldn't have sex at all if they don't want a child. It's not like women do this, is it?

This.

My ex-H actually bought a newborn babygrow as one of his presents to me on our first wedding anniversary saying he "hoped by next year we'd have someone to wear it". Yeah, sure, I pressured him into children. 🙄 In fact we waited several years after that before having them. How could I possibly of known he'd do a runner?! Sorry that I didn't have a crystal ball.

What a horrible thread. Yet again stigmatising and blaming the lone parents - almost all women - who are the ones that stay around and do the work of two people, provide everything for their children financially and emotionally and also do everything in the house (which apparently many Mumsnet posters consider another a full time job in itself). And now it is also our fault that irresponsible men leave their children and have no contact and pay nothing?

How about you start respecting single mothers and campaign for a properly enforced child maintenance system OP, with payments that are 50% of the cost of actually raising a child. Or a tax system that doesn't penalise single parents by taxing them more than a two parent household with the same income despite them doing two people's work in half the time. Do something productive with your time.

Did you get any financial 'help' through the divorce settlement?

These people. 🙄 Do you get some sort of sick pleasure from attacking single parents like this @hoven?

In my case I was by far the higher earner if you must know so I had to pay him off. What's your point?

Unfortunately the bar for men is quite low so many of us accept it. I also think some women are quite willing to overlook large red flags in male behaviour because they want a baby and they'll explain away and minimise crap behaviour because they hope a baby will change him/he'll step up when the baby arrives

And then this crap starts. Every time. So predictable.

Often there are no red flags until the children arrive. You can do everything right and be co-habiting and married for years before children, with a man who does his share of housework and behave respectfully etc, and they still leave after the children are born.

Stop blaming women for men's behaviour.

I usually hear the mothers complaining about their absent partners. Hence why I question their initial choice they made.
Of course fathers should play a part, but I truly believe the majority of cases are down to poor decision making

And more of the same vile comments. Every single time there's a thread about single parents it's the same.

You should be really ashamed of yourselves.

I think it happens but it is the exception rather than the rule.

Perhaps you should listen to the many women on this thread who it has happened to who have told you that it isn't "the exception" @hoven

When you’re a child, if both your parents can’t display emotional intelligence or operate from an emotionally intelligent place, you’re pretty much fucked (unless you have other good adults around you who can fill that void).

Oh great, so now to top it off those of us who had shitty childhoods are also marked as useless parents.

What absolutely vile comments there are in this thread.

@gazpachosoupday sorry about your friend. I'm not denying this happens but I consider it exceptional circumstances.

@hoven what you "consider" is irrelevant. You've been told by many women who have actually experienced it that you're wrong. And based on your comments about family court, child maintenance, social services and relationships you haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about so maybe learn about the actual data on the topic before you post in future so you avoid making a fool of yourself.

Single parents are taxed MORE on the same household income than a two parent household. How is it possible for someone to be this ignorant?!

And yet still feel it's a good idea to comment. 🙄🙄

Yeah, because that's what posters have been describing. Oh wait, no, it wasn't that at all. 🙄

Have all of these people had some kind of brain bypass?