To think family court can't be THAT bad?

[RabbitWarrren]

I have gone down a rabbit hole of threads on here and Twitter accounts of women fighting to get their kids back after abusive and/or rich men have got full custody or majority custody. Some truly awful stories

Am I being a total cow to think there must be more to it? Loving, caring, devoted mothers losing their kids to men who have criminal records? Or even just losing their kids entirely to men who never lifted a finger before?

I don't mean that these stories aren't horrific and unjust. But just that it must be something must be more complex for a mum to lose their kids?

Am I being naive? Victim blaming? Is the family court system really that criminal?

I'm just so sorry to hear this. It is absolutely chilling. Your poor children and I can't imagine how awful this must have felt for you. I hope things are better now?

You might find this report interesting OP https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/assessing-risk-of-harm-to-children-and-parents-in-private-law-children-cases

It's an government commissioned expert report into exactly the issues on this thread and its findings chime with a lot of the exeriences that PP have had. It's a couple of years old now but if anything the situation is worse given the backlogs in the courts.

I had a few visits to family court.

Firstly when ex stopped paying court ordered maintenance. Without having legal representation, they did nothing whilst he failed to provide any paperwork, bank accounts, documents etc required for the process. He cried in front of the judge when these were asked for and said he didn't know how to find them. He owed £8k by this point and I was working myself into the ground to keep a roof over the children. The sympathy shown to him was astonishing.

I gave up and went to CMS where he now owes me another £3k.

He then committed serious criminal offences. I had no idea, until social services called schools.

I was told by social services that if I allowed contact, they would "remove the children from me".

Much much later, he applied for contact (after having spend some time at her Maj pleasure) in family court. In the safeguarding reports collected by CAFCASS, these words by social services did not appear. It only said Mother was advised of criminal acts perpetrated by Father.

That was completely untrue - they told me nothing except do not allow any contact.

To try to find out what had happened, I invoked Sarah's law, Claire's law and everything came back negative, I was clueless as to what the crimes were. I remember a policeman telling me with tears in his eyes there was nothing he could inform me about. (Oh don't get me started)!

My point is (cause that's a whole other story) in court, social services did not make a statement that matched the circumstances and this allowed ambiguity when shown in court. I had nothing in writing, no proof. It made me look like the baddie.

He was claiming alienation and wanted contact, the lack of proper evidence could have substantiated that.

Due to his crimes, the court ordered a risk assessment. At the next court date, this was dismissed as unnecessary because CAFCASS couldn't advise him on where to seek one specific enough for his crimes so it doesn't matter.

CAFCASS failed to action paperwork from one court date to the next causing delay yet I still had to pay my lawyer. I spent £10k.

I don't think I ever saw a judge (Covid so all done online) only legal advisors.

My outcome is satisfactory because the children were allowed to speak and categorically said they wanted no contact. They spoke separately and gave different reasons. I was questioned as to why had I told them about the crimes and CAFCASS judged me for doing so. It was in the press FFS. DC could have read it themselves.

Because I had a lawyer, he firmly put ex back in his box because the legal advisors did nothing (ex does not have my address but my god he tried endlessly to get it in court). If it weren't for my lawyer......

I feel lucky that ex committed serious crimes because if he ever comes near me, I would get taken seriously by the police. How ridiculous is that statement and shows how un protected I felt for so many years before he left prison.

My poor children shouldn't have had to go through a year of CAFCASS. It was horrendous.

@grandmashotdoodlebugs my god. Just no words. Who on earth could hear your story, or the vast majority of any of ours, and defend cafcass and family law as it currently stands. Dangerous, completely short-sighted, uncaring and arrogant.

My emotions have been all stirred up since coming on this thread and I feel angry today. Maybe that's a good thing, help dissolve some of my numbness. I didn't sleep very well last night and dreamt about exH.

I honestly don't know what I'd say to anyone embarking on this journey. Not in a million years would I ever suggest to a woman that she stay in an abusive situation until her DC are older to better the chances of escape later down the line, but with the state of FC as it stands, it's like Hobson's choice. Choose your abuser

Like you I had heard horror stories and assumed there must be more to it. Now I’m supporting a friend through the process and it’s worse than I could have imagined. Despite documented proof of him physically abusing the kids the courts have decided they don’t want to see him because of parental alienation by her and every time the kids refuse contact she’s back in court and is being threatened with the kids being removed because of her harmful emotional abuse of them. It’s perfect for him - by making the kids not want to go, he gets to torture her. The judge is a psychopath

@Shitsandwiches exactly. My friend has been in tears wishing she’s never left him because the awful relationship with financial and coercive control wasn’t as bad as this.

I think this is where im heading. He demands more contact, they give it. Kids refuse to go. He instantly applies to enforce order. I get lectured. The court ignore police and voice of children. But soc serv say if i send them i risk being abusive and not keeping them safe. Fanily court say if i dont send them they will have them removed due to child alienation.
Im the demon in all of this and all i do is continue to be abused myself and try and give my kids as safe and normal life as possible.
He can do what he wants and is empowered to do so by the courts. He fucking loves it. Evoking constant fear and control in me and there are zero repercussions for him... for abuse, not adhering to order, not paying maintenance. Im the bad one. Its a fucking joke.

as I understand it from the statistics we do have almost no men fight for full custody but of the ones that do they are more likely than not to win. There is a big issue with family courts lacking transparency but certainly some judges seem to feel that if a father would want full custody that is strong evidence that the woman is indeed unstable / crazy. At this point there is little a mother can do right to disprove the narrative. If you show emotion you're hysterical and too unstable, if you don't you're cold and unnatural.

Would people who have been through this awful process recommend just agreeing to arrangements privately/ in mediation, even with good reasons not to? I'm wondering if I'd be in a better position to support my DC going to contact if I hadn't had to experience family court, in a rock and hard place sort of way.

I don't think mediation is the solution when dealing with an abusive ex as there is no reasoning with them. I tried this but he still started court proceedings because I didn't completely agree to his terms.
If you do go through the process it would be helpful to have a barrister that understands the dynamics that have been discussed because the majority are misinformed. I would also recommend support from an IDVA to help navigate the process (where domestic abuse is involved). I don't think there is any easy answer. Agreeing contact arrangements that don't suit the children in order to appease the ex and avoid court isn't the answer either. Until the system is changed and laws reviewed I don't know what is other than to navigate the process with the reality of the system you are up against and as much support as possible.

I've lost all trust in the system but still pursuing an appeal and going through the Cafcass complaints process and I'll confront their failings at any chance I get. It's a tiring battle but one worth fighting.

You agree privately at your peril. With abusive, coercive, selfish, manipulative people- remember they are hardwired to be destructive not constructive- you have to ensure everything is written in blood in a court order… and even then, they continue to play with their toys and will not honour even the binding word of the law.

It’s very difficult to make honourable decisions, arrangements, and agreements with those lacking integrity and a moral compass.

What a horrific read. Thanks for sharing your stories. I am disgusted and horrified what you have been through. I have been lucky to have had a decent relationship and my kids are adults now, but life could have been different of course. It’s appalling that vulnerable women and kids are treated this way.

This thread is a deterrent to women who want/need to leave awful men. What a ‘choice’. I am so sorry for those trapped in these relationships.

How dare this system be so abusive.

Yes it is bad. You have to be the right sort of woman and you have to be a lot cleverer than just thinking the court will agree with you.

It won't. Don't ever think that your emotion, your worry or your view is going to matter. What matters is hard evidence. Assume that all authority is doing what's easiest for itself; they will grant contact unless you've got a very significant reason and evidence with which Cafcass and Social Services agree.

You need other authority to agree with you to stand a chance. The courts are not about justice for you, they will look at cold hard fact.

Definitely no to mediation with an abuser I'm afraid. Same with couples counselling. My friend went through a divorce with a controlling man and he bullied her into settling out of court - he then continued to control her, changed agreements, cut his money to her or didn't pay and she had no come back. My solicitor at the time said the best money you will spend is on a Barrister for this part of the divorce, and she was right. ExH also tried to bully me into settling out of court but I didn't, I stood firm and everything was court ordered. So far, he hasn't reneged on that because there is the threat of criminal proceedings if he does, but I know that isn't always a deterrent unfortunately.

F

Not in my experience. Abuser denied everything even with evidence and they believed every lie and accusation he made without evidence. Its those who shout the loudest and the courts have an agenda to go with the dads.

That sounds terrible. I don't disagree that abusers manipulate the courts. There are problems. All I mean is that a woman has to work hard to have a fair chance at court.

The only good thing is that you can try again. It's still too much of a lottery.

I work in the family justice system. There are some brilliant, empathetic, child focused judges and Cafcass officers. There are also some absolutely terrible, misogynistic, uncaring judges and Cafcass officers.
Unfortunately which one you get is an absolute gamble.
It's also fair to say that even the brilliant judges are working with limited resources, for example they may have 8 family hearings in a day and only get the papers that morning, and can only make decisions based on the information that is presented to them - they're not living your lives. They also don't have access to good contact centres, psychological support, therapeutic intervention...all the things that could make contact safe and manageable. If the parents don't suggest it or can't pay for it, they can't order it.
The family court strategy is to get cases out of court as quickly as possible and hope for the best. It's woefully under resourced - that's the government's choice.
I would say that it's important to bear in mind that by it's very nature, the service users of the family court are in conflict and someone always goes away disappointed. Noone goes to family court for a fun time. So the experiences are traumatic by their circumstances. That doesn't mean the system should make it more so, but it does skew the strength of feeling around it.

I have no respect for my husband. He's petty, sulky, and shuts down almost instantly if I try to talk to him. However he is good with kids mostly. Loyal. Sensible. Lazy but will help out if I ask.

I do know though that he will snap if I leave. He sees himself as the best dad in the world. I know he will punish me for leaving. He's said as much. He will keep taking me back to court for more and more or full custody. I don't doubt he will say I'm mad.

But I'm not scared with him. My life is manageable. I can see friends, I can do what I want mostly. My kids are genuinely happy and settled.

I honestly thought I can't listen to him drone on and complain a minute longer and was sure I would leave in 2023, but I don't know how I can justify such a decision. I'm almost certain we will end up in court and I could lose them or will cause them pain or fear.

Thank you for all sharing your stories. I'm so bloody angry this is what we are facing.

All very informative 👌🏽 and true that 'no one goes for a fun time' but it has to be highlighted that abusive men do go as a means of pursuing post separation abuse and control to their ex partner. They are not necessarily disappointed that they didn't 'win' the time they desired with the children. If they lose the case they lose the ability to control their ex partner as intended.

Yes I absolutely agree that some men use the court as a form of abuse and further means of control.
I think the difficulty is that in the limited time and resources the court has, separating out the control cases from the 'genuine wish to be a dad' cases is quite tricky (understatement) because the majority of mums who end up in the family court (and I use those sex divisions as they are the 'norm' but of course not always) are preventing/restricting contact to an extent, otherwise why would they be there? And so the judge hears the same stories 5,6,7 times a day. Some are true and some are lies. They don't have the resources that the police has for deciding who to charge for a crime. They only have to be satisfied on the balance of probability (ie more than half) about what's true or not. It's a very inexact science done under time pressure.
Not to say that's not shit for the families involved of course.

I understand that but I think the question needs to be why? Why are these women restricting access? I think I can speak for many single Mums when I say that we would desire nothing more than to have a healthy coparenting relationship with our children's father's. To have the burden shared and the benefit, for our children, of two loving parents. But that is not our reality. We are trying to protect our children within a flawed system that doesn't have the time to explore our genuine concerns as you mentioned. But these are our lives and our children's lives placed in the hands of strangers. The consequences for our children, if the decisions being made in a place of let's 'hope for the best', are the wrong ones is at best irresponsible and at worst devastating

Well sadly I have met (professionally) lots of mums who don't want a loving co-parenting relationship for their kids because they see that children as 'theirs' and do weaponise children as part of a separation, and who do make false allegations against loving dads who may have, for example, cheated on them (unforgivable from the POV of the adult relationship of course, but not directly related to their children).
And I've met lots of dads who want '50/50' because they see their children as possessions and not human beings.
Court is not the right arena for human relationships. I also do some civil law and it works really well for working out compensation claims and employment disputes and unpaid water bills. It's a blunt instrument for dividing up a child's existence by a stranger whose never met them.

And I agree the consequences can be devastating. Sadly the system doesn't allow judges to ever find out the consequences. There's nothing in place to keep track of outcomes for the families about whom decisions are made. Not even when a child is removed and adopted. The MOJ follows nothing up. Which I think is horrendous and does not help judges to know if they're doing the right thing.

Yes true and there are always going to be exceptions. Those are the cases that make it problematic for those that are genuine. I agree that these cases are not looked at in the right environment. I hope this comes to light in the near future